Bill C-30 (39th Parliament, 1st Session) Committee on Feb. 5th, 2007

[The Chair, Conservative, Laurie Hawn]

We'll make the appropriate contacts.

Mr. Godfrey.

[John Godfrey, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

I have one more—and I apologize to Monsieur Bigras, because I was at the steering committee.

One of the things we've been trying to do is find people who are actually outside the unions or the automakers, but who actually know something about automobiles. We tried to get a guest named Daniel Sperling, from California, but it was very much last-minute.

We have put on one NGO representative who knows a lot about air pollution, in the form of John Bennett from the Climate Action Network. He's somebody from the NGO community who knows an awful lot about the auto sector, so I would like to put his name forward. I realize we're scrambling a bit because we're coming right up to a deadline. I don't plan to make a habit of this, but I would like to throw this person in because we don't have anybody actually commenting on the industry itself, other than people who are directly affected by it.

So I would move that, and then we can vote on it or whatever.

[The Chair, Conservative, Laurie Hawn]

Mr. Warawa.

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

The position within the steering committee was to have good representation from the NGOs, from academia, and from industry. We do have a representation from the NGOs, that being Mr. Ogilvie. To now add an additional NGO at the last minute is, I think, against the spirit of cooperation that was achieved in this—

[An hon. member]

[Inaudible—Editor]

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

Well, that's why I'm speaking. I hope we continue the spirit of cooperation here.

[The Chair, Conservative, Laurie Hawn]

Okay, Mr. Cullen, you have about one minute.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

I think this speaks well to other committee members who don't sit on the steering committee to communicate as best they can the types of witnesses they really want to put forward and which ones are priority. I just put that out there.

In terms of this, we just put two auto industry people in front of the committee, so we are trying to establish balance at our panels, not to have too much weighting on one or the other. If we've just put an additional NGO, then the balance seems fine for tomorrow. But this has to be with diligence and discretion, folks. We can't keep doing this, because it's going to be a mess quicker than you think.

[The Chair, Conservative, Laurie Hawn]

The motion is to add John Bennett of Climate Action Network Canada to the witness list for tomorrow afternoon.

(Motion agreed to)

[The Chair, Conservative, Laurie Hawn]

This committee will suspend until after the vote.

[The Chair, Conservative, Laurie Hawn]

We do have quorum. There are a couple of announcements. Let's get this show on the road.

We have a little fire in the background. We can turn all our chairs around, get out the wine and cheese, and roast some marshmallows—or we can get to work, which I think we'll do.

Now, some work has been done since we suspended. The clerk will go over the witness situation for tomorrow.

[The Clerk]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The notice for tomorrow night's meeting has been modified and republished to reflect the two new witnesses who were added. Mr. Bennett and Mr. Adams have both been contacted. I talked to them both personally. They both accepted to appear before the committee tomorrow, so the notice reflects as such.

[The Chair, Conservative, Laurie Hawn]

Okay.

I would like to remind folks that the first round will be seven minutes each and then five minutes thereafter. If we go through the twelve rounds and everybody is precisely on time, we'll have 68 minutes worth of dialogue. Hopefully we'll be out of here by a quarter to nine or nine o'clock. I'd ask everybody to be as precise as you can to get in as many questions and answers as we can.

If the witnesses are ready, we will start with Mr. McGuinty.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Good evening to the witnesses, to the ladies and gentlemen in the room, and to the Canadians who might be watching.

I'd like to begin, Mr. Chair, by sharing some information with the witnesses. This is an information book that was sent to me as a parliamentarian and it is available to all Canadians. It's about Canada's Clean Air Act, the new bill that the government has put forward, which we're debating.

I've gone through the bill with a fine-toothed comb. I have looked at the backgrounders. There are two backgrounders. One backgrounder speaks about greenhouse gas emissions. One even goes as far as talking about international standards established by the International Maritime Organization, for example. Another one cites the Minister of Health, the Honourable Tony Clement; the then Minister of the Environment, the Honourable Rona Ambrose; the Minister of Natural Resources, the Honourable Gary Lunn; and the Honourable Lawrence Cannon, the Minister of Transport.

There's another backgrounder on why we need the Clean Air Act. There's yet another backgrounder on the need for immediate action. We just heard from you and saw a presentation that is 34 pages in length. Furthermore, the bill itself is 37 pages in length.

In all of this material—in all of these backgrounders, in the bill, in your briefing—there isn't a single reference to the Kyoto Protocol. There was no mention of the Kyoto Protocol in your presentation. There's no mention of domestic or international targets, no mention for Canadians as to when we ratified the protocol, when it entered into force, whether or not the bill addresses directly, for example, the Kyoto Protocol clean development mechanisms or the joint implementation structure in that bill.

The question I have for each of you, representing different departments, is a simple one. Have any of you been explicitly told by your departmental senior officials or your ministers not to include the Kyoto Protocol in any of your discussions about this bill?

That's my first question, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Laurie Hawn]

Mr. Moffet, your mike is on. Perhaps you would start.

[John Moffet]

No, I haven't received any such instruction.

[The Chair, Conservative, Laurie Hawn]

Ms. Buckley.

[Carol Buckley]

No, no such instruction.

[Phil Blagden, Manager, Air Health Effects Division, Department of Health]

No, I've never been so instructed.

[The Chair, Conservative, Laurie Hawn]

Ms. Roy.

[Guylaine Roy]

No.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

That's question one. Thank you.

My second question is along the lines of the following. It has to do with the fact that we've just come out of a vote in the House of Commons where the motion put forward by the official opposition was passed. It calls upon Parliament to uphold the Kyoto Protocol in its entirety—its obligations, its targets, Canada's responsibility to move beyond post-2012—and to lead the planet in a global response.

I also want to read a quote that comes from the House of Commons today, when the Minister of the Environment was asked a question, Mr.Chair, about the Clean Air Act. One of his answers was that, “Kyoto is all about a global effort to reduce greenhouse gas emissions all around the world and right here in Canada.” That's a verbatim quote from only several hours ago in the House of Commons, in answer to a question.

Most Canadians would be forgiven for asking why it is that there is an elephant in this boardroom called the Kyoto Protocol and it is not being referred to. None of you apparently have ever received instructions of any kind not to talk about the Kyoto Protocol.

I'm going to ask you another question, and it has to do with the federal government's powers. Does the federal government today possess all of the powers necessary to comply with the obligations we undertook as a nation and as a people under the Kyoto Protocol?

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, are these witnesses expert on constitutional law, or—? I just don't understand what reference they could have to whether or not it's binding.

[The Chair, Conservative, Laurie Hawn]

I will say that these are technical witnesses. If we start getting into areas of policy, then they should be reserved for the minister.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

This is a very technical question put forward to very expert witnesses, Mr. Chair.