Canada-China Relations Committee on Feb. 4th, 2020

[Heather Jeffrey]

I can't comment on a hypothetical question. We would have to—

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Fair enough. Thank you.

Mr. Harris.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for coming.

I did have one question at the beginning. I asked you about it earlier. You're listed as the ADM of the Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development. We keep hearing about Global Affairs Canada. I'm assuming they're the same thing. One may be more of a brand. Could you explain the difference?

[Heather Jeffrey]

I believe that the continuing legal name of the department is Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development, but the working name that we use is Global Affairs Canada, so they're both correct.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you. I think knowing the difference might help some people on the committee and in the general public.

I also have some other questions, but I want to follow up briefly on Mr. Genuis's question about bringing permanent residents back to Canada. I didn't get a confirmation from you that Canada would be happy to bring permanent residents back to Canada as part of this evacuation, as long as there's consent from the Chinese government. Is that correct?

[Heather Jeffrey]

In terms of the provision of consular services brought under the Vienna Convention, that provision of consular services is focused on Canadian citizens in the first instance. However, in cases of natural disaster, humanitarian responses and evacuations such as what we see in Hubei, we try to preserve family unity and extend services to those Canadian citizens and permanent residents to whom we are able to. That has been the case, for example, in previous responses to hurricanes and in other emergency responses.

In the case of the particular situation in Hubei province, the Chinese government has made it clear that its position is initially that foreign nationals who are travelling on their foreign national travel documents would be facilitated to exit, and we have managed to work with the Chinese government—

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Excuse me, I don't mean to interrupt. I understand that. Mr. Genuis was speaking about a person who wasn't accompanying a Canadian citizen child but was a permanent resident of Canada. My question is this: Would the Canadian government assist in the evacuation of such a person, assuming that the Chinese government approved?

[Heather Jeffrey]

We have been working with all Canadians and permanent residents on the ground. We've been exchanging with them to determine their needs. At the moment, it is a hypothetical question. We're working with the Chinese government to see what is possible and how we can assist everyone who is on the ground there seeking to depart.

We recognize fully that it's an extremely difficult situation to be confined and not to have an opportunity for departure.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

I appreciate that, although I don't want to waste my whole time on this question. I thought it was a yes-or-no question. Obviously, it's not a yes-or-no question. There are people who want to come back who are permanent residents but are not being accompanied by children, and the answer is qualified. I understand that.

Can I ask about the bilateral agreement with China, about the Vienna Convention? Is China in compliance with the Vienna Convention? Was the 1999 agreement to add additional safeguards, or was it to try to get China to agree to abide by the Vienna Convention?

[Heather Jeffrey]

What I would say is that the Vienna Convention, obviously written many years before the prevalence of dual nationality, doesn't contemplate specifics in regard to many of the modern-day challenges that we face in terms of the provision of consular services. It's for this reason that we have been trying to work bilaterally with different countries to try to enforce the access that we need to serve Canadians abroad. The Vienna Convention provides a lot of different protections, both diplomatically and in terms of consular officials, but we are looking for more specific undertakings from governments in order to allow us to do our work.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

So your suggestion is that the bilateral agreement is inadequate for these circumstances.

[Heather Jeffrey]

I'm suggesting that we're continuing to advocate for greater consular access to Canadians than the Chinese government is providing us with.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

I think that does answer the question. Thank you.

We're advised that the current travel advisory for China indicates that Canadians should “exercise a high degree of caution in China due to the risk of arbitrary enforcement of local laws”. This is from the notes provided to us as of January 24. Is that a new designation? How long has that been in effect?

[Heather Jeffrey]

The current travel advice, as I mentioned, is actually that Canadians should avoid non-essential travel to China because of the coronavirus and the measures taken to prevent its spread.

Last January, we did update the advice to highlight the risks of arbitrary detention, and there is a great deal of detailed information in the travel advice about the different areas against which we caution Canadians, and some of the things that they would need to consider. The decision whether or not to travel to a particular country is a decision of individual Canadians, and our efforts are to provide them with the information they need about what we have observed and some of the challenges that Canadians have experienced. Also, we provide information on local contacts so that they can take the best informed decision possible.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

It's always good advice to be careful, but my question is whether that is something new as a result of the developments with Michael Kovrig and Michael Spavor, or is that advice that you've always given? Is that always a concern in China, or is this a new concern that's being highlighted for a particular reason?

[Heather Jeffrey]

The level of the advice was at “exercise a higher degree of caution” prior to that, and we have brought up the level of that particular risk to the top of the advisory to draw the attention of Canadians to it.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Do you have a list? In addition to the two who are top of mind, are there a number of Canadians who are, in the view of consular affairs of Canada, considered to be arbitrarily detained in China?

[Heather Jeffrey]

Arbitrary detentions take place in different countries across the world, but in relation to the Government of China, the two cases of arbitrary detention that we have highlighted are the two cases of Michael Kovrig and Michael Spavor, and also the sentencing of Mr. Schellenberg to the death penalty.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Thank you very much, Mr. Harris.

Go ahead, Mrs. Kusie.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

It's great to see you both, my former colleagues. I was remarking to Brian that I was actually his assignment officer when he was in Mongolia, so I can't believe we've come full circle here.

Of course, coming from the position of a former diplomat, my strong core belief is that diplomats do only what their government asks them to do. My questioning is always to see where you receive your direction from, working for the government and working for your political masters. I'll start with asking where Kovrig and Spavor are currently detained in China.

[Heather Jeffrey]

I'm sorry but, as I explained earlier, due to the Privacy Act, I'm not going to comment on the particular circumstances of the cases.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Okay, so we'll assume, for the sake of this, that they are detained in Beijing. You mentioned that there is the consular agreement between Canada and China beyond the provisions outlined in the Vienna Convention. Would we be able to table that document here within the committee?

[Heather Jeffrey]

Do you mean the consular agreement? It's available publicly on our website.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Super.

Has there been a contiguous consul in Beijing since the time of their detention?

[Heather Jeffrey]

We have always had a mission in Beijing. We have had a chargé d'affaires, an ambassador, a head of consular section—