Canada-China Relations Committee on Feb. 5th, 2020

[Dominic Barton]

I've looked into that case. I call him Huseyin. Basically, because Huseyin is not a Canadian citizenship holder, we aren't able to get access to him on a consular services side. We've tried, because he's someone I would like to see. I know it has been a long-standing file, but—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Mr. Celil actually is a Canadian citizen.

My next question is, does the Government of Canada support calls for universal suffrage in Hong Kong?

[Dominic Barton]

There are two things I would say on that.

Again, on the case of Huseyin, we have tried everything we can and we do not have access on the consular services side. We've tried. If you have ideas of how to do it, I'm open to them.

On Hong Kong, we support the one country, two systems model. We believe people should have the right to be able to express their views. We're hopeful for a peaceful resolution of that, but we believe very much in the one country, two systems approach.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Do you support calls for universal suffrage in Hong Kong?

[Dominic Barton]

We support the one country, two systems model. There are very clear rules about what can be done and not done, and that's the approach we take.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, sir. I think your answer is clear.

You used the word “friends”. You said that friends disagree with respect to the Chinese government. I'm curious. Principally, do you regard the Chinese government as a strategic friend, as a strategic competitor or foe or as something else?

[Dominic Barton]

As I mentioned, China is a very complex place. I think that to try to paint it as black or white is not appropriate. There are parts of what China does where we have a very strong common interest in what we want to do in advancing an agenda and there are parts of what China does that we fundamentally disagree with, but it's not black or white.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you for providing your views on that.

During the introduction you spoke about cultural and philosophical differences. You talked about how we have to understand history and culture and that China's political differences, in your view, may be rooted in Confucian values of collectivism, unity and harmony.

My reading of the founding texts of Confucianism is they're very much at odds with the typical practices of the current Chinese government, and I would make this argument: It was the politics of the Marxist powers in China to try to destroy China's Confucian history. In places like Hong Kong and Taiwan that history was not destroyed.

Today Taiwan is a well functioning democracy, rooted very much in China's history and values, and Hong Kong is a place where there are strong calls for universal suffrage and democracy, which I would hope Canadians would support.

It seems to me that the political structures of China are not rooted predominantly in long-standing Confucian values, but in the political philosophy of Marxism and totalitarian control. I'd love to hear you defend your view on that. Are we maybe agreeing somewhat? What do you think about that thesis?

[Dominic Barton]

I don't think we're agreeing.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Okay.

[Dominic Barton]

My understanding of Chinese history—and as I said we all should spend time really understanding what's happening there—is that Confucianism is very much a part of the system and how it's working today. There are different manifestations of that in mainland China, not just in Hong Kong and Taiwan, and that's rooted, as I said, in the notion of harmony and the collective good as opposed to the individual. It's a view in that system. Many other dimensions, too, are worth looking at on that front. It doesn't mean that we have to agree, we just need to recognize—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

I have a quick follow-up question before time runs out.

Would you agree those values are completely compatible with freedom and democracy and with the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, as we've seen in places like Taiwan?

[Dominic Barton]

You packed a lot into that question. I'll try to answer it.

Some elements of collectivism and harmony are at odds with individual rights. They're different.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Thank you, Mr. Genuis.

Mr. Fragiskatos.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Barton, we've met now tonight for two hours plus. You've answered a number of questions on a number of different topics. I see we're approaching the end of this meeting. Is there a key message you would like to communicate, not just to us tonight but to those Canadians who are following the issue of the Canada-Chinese relationship very closely and are concerned about it? Is there something you would like to put forward as your main message to them?

[Dominic Barton]

My main message is that China is a complex country and a society that represents very significant opportunities for us. A lot of our prosperity can benefit from being part of it, but there are also some things we don't agree with and don't like. Whatever your view is, we're going to have to engage with China. I'm of the view that we can make that work. But we are going to have to raise our game as a society and over time. I hope it's more of a long-term approach. Again, when I see how other countries are dealing with this, when they're struggling with a shift with China and the United States and so forth, we're seeing a more long-term consistent approach, which can again be by use of the accelerator and brake at the same time. I would hope we're not seeing this as a black and white model.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Mr. Chair, I am going to be splitting my time with Ms. Yip.

As a last question, when you come to the conclusion of your appointment, whenever that might be, what will success look like, in your view?

[Dominic Barton]

Success, in my view, will defined as the following. I want Michael Spavor and Michael Kovrig released and back in Canada, and I want the death sentence taken away from Robert Schellenberg. That is the fundamental point of what I would see.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you, Ambassador.

I'll share my time, as I said, with Ms. Yip.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

There are 300,000 Canadians in Hong Kong. What are your thoughts on the Hong Kong protests and their impact on Canada?

[Dominic Barton]

Well, Mr. Chair, to your exact point, there are 300,000 Canadians there and we have to care about what happens to them. It's a high area of focus for us. I hope that people are listening to some of the messages that are being given by the protestors, and there's a broad range of messages. They relate also to income inequality and lack of opportunity and so forth.

I hope there can be a peaceful way for addressing those issues being raised. I think the elections that occurred recently were a manifestation of that. It was a process where messages were delivered. The Chinese government has not intervened or pushed through. I don't think that's what they wanted or expected, but they recognize that's where the people are. It's a delicate balance of hoping that ideas and people's expression can be put through, and that they can get to a peaceful place in it. I say so because the current course is harmful for everyone.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Do you feel that the coronavirus has muted some of these issues at all in Hong Kong?

[Dominic Barton]

I think the coronavirus has changed the focus on a lot of things for the short term. The coronavirus is probably going to be here longer than we think, and I just don't believe the idea that we're going to be done with it in March. I'm not a virologist, so you should be careful whom you're listening to on that. I just think this is going to take longer.

That said, these issues are not going to go away in the world, and that's why I think we have to keep moving. Obviously, this is a big issue now, but we have to keep moving on all the other agenda items, too.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Some constituents have told me that they are scared and worried about loved ones in China, and also about the coronavirus spreading to Canada. What assurances can you give Canadians? Is there anything in your discussions with the Chinese government that could ease their minds or give them some peace of mind?

[Dominic Barton]

Well, first, if there's any country that I'd want to have to deal with a big crisis like that, it's them, in the sense of the scale. They don't want it to move out of the system at all. They're willing. When you see the lockdown that's going on in Hubei province and Wuhan, it's simply extraordinary. Even in other cities that are not affected.... In Beijing you could land a 747 on the Third Ring Road right now. It's just that people are focused and moving it. The effort China's making to contain this is extraordinary, and the World Health Organization has said so. You see it.

On the Canadian side, I'd also feel good. There was a lot of learning from the SARS issue in terms of how communications occurred, what we know among the provinces and the federal government. This whole field is an area of incredible strength for Canada. It's why China is actually asking for our help. It's not just the masks and the garments; they want virologists. They want access to our medical capability and advice on how this goes.

I think government is being very transparent and open. The discussions about where things are going are very intense. We have, I think, five cases. Again, we also are going to extraordinary lengths, and we're being very evidence-based on this. It's very scientific and evidence-based, and that's key.