Canada-China Relations Committee on Feb. 5th, 2020

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

As I was saying, we'll have a chance to take another look at—

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

I'm sorry, Mr. Bergeron, but your time is up.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

I relied on you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

I'm sorry. It's my fault.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

You should acknowledge that a mistake occurred and let me continue.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Ha, ha! Nice try, Mr. Bergeron.

Mr. Harris, you have the floor.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you, Chair.

These times are not long enough to have a full discussion. Hopefully, we can get you to come back.

We're obviously interested here in making sure that everything is being done that can be done with respect to the detainees. Also, we're concerned about the overall relationship and the levers that we aren't using that could be used. Have you discovered any new ones since you've become ambassador?

[Dominic Barton]

Mr. Chair, I'm interested in ideas from the committee, by the way, because I think we have to be creative while recognizing that we have a rule of law and not being bullied. I think there's room for creativity.

As I said, international pressure is a good part of it, and we need to keep that up for the long term. In terms of discussions with China, I think we need to look at it and say that there's so much more we can do together, so why is this getting in our way? We need to frame that up. It's one thing to say it, but what does that look like? It's working with the United States.

I think there are areas, but we're going to have to have some creativity within the system that we are in. That's where, when you start discussing things with people, I think ideas can come up.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you.

I want to go back to the question of bullying as a tactic, or as a fact of life, perhaps, in some international relationships. We've seen it with the American administration in some cases. I won't go into detail.

What disturbs me is that we're told there are 14 countries that are on our side and are willing to say so, but there is an unknown number of countries, perhaps a large number, that aren't. They're not willing to say so, obviously out of some sort of fear of repercussions, retaliation or some sort of bullying. I find that worrisome, as a citizen of the world. There are a lot of countries in the world; I'd like to see the list to see how many are there but not really there.

What do we do about that? Is there something that tells us what we need to do?

[Dominic Barton]

It's a very good point. One thing I was surprised about is that, well, this is an important area in which to do things, but I also feel a bit like we're alone in the world.

The good news is that there are 14 countries that have come out. There are other countries that, not for bullying reasons, but it's just their culture and approach, don't say anything about anyone. We can push them and drive them, but this isn't to do with China. They don't talk about the United States. It's just the way they are.

All I'm saying is, as someone coming into this thought, this would be an obvious area. It was surprising to me, too.

I do think there are things we can do on that, because in a world that's changing so quickly, we have to think about working together. The whole of foundations are changing, the multilateral foundation, so I think we should invest in that because there are areas for co-operation. However, I too have been surprised at a number of places that are not interested in it, and interestingly, not because of bullying but it's just not what they want to do.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Thank you, Mr. Harris.

Colleagues, as I indicated, we can go until 7:45. I understand that Mr. Manly would like to ask for agreement that he be permitted to ask a question.

Mr. Manly, do you want to make your request?

[Paul Manly, Green, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Yes. If the committee agrees, I would like to take a short opportunity to say something and ask a question.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Is it agreed?

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Mr. Chair, I have no objection, but I have a question.

I think the ambassador did say that he had some flexibility with the time. In light of Mr. Manly's desire and that of some others, could we possibly extend until 8 o'clock?

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Apparently there isn't agreement to do that—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Okay. Either way, it's fine.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

—but I guess there was agreement to let Mr. Manly ask a question, and then we will come back to the list. Is that all right?

Mr. Manly, I will let you go ahead.

[Paul Manly, Green, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you very much for allowing me the opportunity to speak.

I want to echo some of the things I've heard from other members here. I'm not going to belabour these points, but in regard to your relationship to McKinsey and 22 of the 100 top state-owned corporations, your relationship to Teck Resources and the Chinese Investment Corporation and these conflicts of interest, I just want to put those concerns on the record.

However, my question is related to this position we're in between the United States and China with Huawei and 5G and how you see this unfolding, how we're going to manoeuver through this situation with the Five Eyes and the demands by the Americans that we not take on Huawei Technologies to implement 5G.

[Dominic Barton]

Right. The 5G question is clearly a critical one. There are a lot of security issues that are going to be dealt with in that. I'm not part of that conversation.

We have people in the government who are looking at that file and moving it through. I think it's an important decision that's going to be made. Again, I'm not party to those discussions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Manly.

Mr. Genuis, please. You have five minutes.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Your Excellency, could you share a little about your engagement on the Celil case?

[Dominic Barton]

On the what?

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

The Celil case. That's the name of a Canadian detained in China.

[Dominic Barton]

Oh, sorry, yes. He has been in detention for about 15 years.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Yes.