Canada-China Relations Committee on Feb. 5th, 2020

[Dominic Barton]

It does. It definitely does. What we don't want to do is to have this happen again or to happen to another country, so it's in other countries' interests to say they don't.... It may be Canada now, but who's next? There is an interest. The minister has even talked about the notion of a protocol that would be put in place that countries would agree to.

It definitely is something that we are continuing to move on, but we have to think about other things in addition.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you, Ambassador.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Thank you, Mr. Harris.

Colleagues, we're going to add the five minutes onto the end of the meeting, but we'll suspend for now.

Ambassador, I understand that when we come back you'd like to correct something from earlier on, and I'll give you an opportunity to do that.

[Dominic Barton]

Sure.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

We'll add that as well, if you don't mind, to the time for the meeting.

The meeting is suspended.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

I'm calling the meeting back to order.

I understand you don't have a statement, Mr. Ambassador.

We're still on five minutes.

Ms. Alleslev.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you very much for being here, Ambassador.

It's very important that we understand more about where we need to be going. Many of the things you said are about deepening and broadening the relationship with China, yet at the same time promoting and defending Canada's interests. I wonder if you could speak to that in terms of the vulnerability that we face by doing more business with China.

Can you tell us what you're doing to protect us from that vulnerability?

[Dominic Barton]

Again, I very much believe in this notion that we engage, but that we also defend our interests and where we need to do both.

I think we've been working with industry on that side. If you think about canola, it would be the classic vulnerability. With such a significant portion of our canola exports going there, when that is hit it is a big vulnerability. I think we're saying, let's make sure we have diversification and that we're not putting too many eggs in one basket, and also just working with the industry to make sure we think about how that works.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

But there is the rule of law. It feels to Canadians that China is not respecting the rule of law, and that it shouldn't be able to put this punishing prohibition on our exports. Diversifying will just mean China can hold us hostage on more fronts at the same time rather than just one, but it still has a material impact, particularly if we broaden...

[Dominic Barton]

What I meant was that it's not broadening within China; it's broadening in Asia. We aren't just putting all our eggs in one basket, first of all, in China. It's an important market. There's a very big market in Asia too, so let's make sure we do that.

Second, I think we have to use the rule of law. On canola, where I've been quite involved with industry and the government has been involved, we went to the WTO. That has now led to discussions. So there was a hard...and then there was a discussion.

The important thing I think is that we do it with industry, that we're working together on that.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

How would you characterize the progress?

[Dominic Barton]

I think the progress is quite good, but let's see the result. We're in discussions. We were not having any discussions before and we are now. This has involved not only the federal government, but provincial government people as well, again with the industry. So, there's a dialogue. There was a refusal to have a discussion before, so we're getting into that.

China also needs some of these products we're talking about, so it's moving in the right direction, but we have to get the result.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Now, clearly, we're seeing that there isn't necessarily the same kind of separation between corporations and government in the People's Republic of China as we would have in North America. With mandated laws in China that say that corporations have to provide governments with that information, how do we mitigate that and protect and defend Canadian interests when doing business with these countries?

[Dominic Barton]

I think that when Canadian companies are doing business with Chinese companies, the trade commissioner's officers are very good at explaining the requirements, what type of joint venture agreement you should have and being very open about how that works. I also think we need to differentiate between state-owned companies and the private sector. There's a lot of noise about what's happening where. We need to spend time focused on each company and understand the governance of that company.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

But are there not a number of increasingly private corporations that have party officials on their boards? That's an increasing trend in China?

[Dominic Barton]

There are reports of that happening. That's why I think it is most important to look at each company individually, just as we would do in other places. You can understand very clearly what's happening. It's not intransparent.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

It feels to Canadians as if it's not very transparent. Could you advise us on why we should believe it is transparent?

[Dominic Barton]

I think this is the difference between being in the country and being outside the country. I think it's important to understand who the individuals are and what their relationships are. You can get a lot of information that way, and you can find out from other Chinese business leaders as well how they think about it. Look at the results of joint ventures. A lot of other businesses around the world are interacting with companies and some don't interact with others; that's very clear when you're there.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Thank you, Ms. Alleslev.

I'll now give the floor to Mr. Dubourg, who will share his time with Ms. Yip.

[Emmanuel Dubourg, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Yes. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Your Excellency, I want to thank you for joining us.

First, I want to join my colleagues from the Bloc Québécois and the NDP in saying that your work on the ground under the current circumstances is important to us. We must give our regards to the three Canadians detained over there. I know that we've been told that there may be 123 Canadians detained in Hong Kong or China, but these three cases are a little more problematic.

I want to ask you a few questions. I looked through your CV and I can see that your background is exemplary. I want to congratulate you on that. I can also see that you're very familiar with the situation on the ground over there.

When you were contacted following Mr. McCallum's departure, what was your reaction? Can you clearly show us that, based on your experience and expertise, you're the right person for this role, even though we said earlier that, since your arrival, we've really seen the tension drop? Tell us about the experience that you have to help Canada in this difficult situation.

[Dominic Barton]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. And thanks, again, for the messages to our detainees. That will be very well received by them next week.

I hope I'm understanding correctly. I was asked to take this role before, and I didn't want to do it. I didn't feel it fitted my timing. After I was asked again, I felt there was a very significant need. I think what I've tried to bring to it is my experience, as I have relationships from having lived in that country that have been built over time with people. They know that I know what they're like. They know I will tell truth to power. I don't back off on that. They know my track record. And it's broad. It's not just business. It's in government, the social sector and universities. Probably my closest linkages are through the university system. What I've tried to do is to bring those relationships to bear, to the extent I can. There are other Canadians who also have very good relationships in China that we need to harness. That's from the academic side, the NGO side and from the business side. Our pension funds, for example, are very influential in where it is.

So, it was to try to assemble a team, if you will, and then have a plan. I think it's the total commitment. My objective is to restore the relationship, but within those three parameters. I have been very clear all the way through, and I'm focused. I talked with anyone I possibly could, mainly informally at first because it was difficult to have formal conversations. I would meet people and say, “Oh, I happened to see you in the restaurant”. That's interesting, that type of discussion, in then getting to a formal basis. Again, the team we have in Beijing is very good. They have those relationships, too.

That's what we've tried to do to build the channels to have the discussions.

[Emmanuel Dubourg, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Okay. Thank you.

In your introduction, you said that you were asked to restore that relationship and to bring the two Michaels back to Canada. You also talked about human rights. However, you did say that Canada must understand China and China must understand Canada.

Granted, it's not in your mandate, but what role are you going to play in that area? What common ground will you build on to make this mutual understanding real?

[Dominic Barton]

I think on the Chinese side there's a broad understanding that we're a resource-based country, a country that's been very helpful. But it's about making sure they understand the depth and breadth of who we are and our capabilities, I think, are areas where that's the case. And why do we believe in human rights the way we do? It's one thing to say it, but why is that the case? What's our history on that front? It's more the whys of how this works.

There are some Canadian study centres in a number of the universities. I think, by the way, we need to fund them more because we need to have more Chinese academics writing about Canada, not Canadians writing about Canada in China, and there's an appetite for it. But we support it. So those are the stories we need to get across.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Thank you, Monsieur Dubourg.

Over to Mr. Albas.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

Thank you.

Ambassador, earlier in my intervention I asked you about your meetings with Huawei officials, including the dates, locations, and the identity of the people you met with. I'd like you to submit that to the committee. Perhaps you could do it by February 14. That would be an acceptable time. It's important for Parliament to receive this information. I'd appreciate your co-operation.