Canada-China Relations Committee on March 9th, 2020

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Is he right?

[Howard Balloch]

He wasn't actually a career diplomat, and he is wrong.

When I was ambassador, Guy Saint-Jacques was my number two, and he ran a political-economic section of maybe 10 people. There wasn't a single person there who didn't speak Chinese and who didn't have his own networks and didn't reach out into the community.

We can do more, but we should not be criticized for what we've done in the past. We've had a very professional service in China and we have done lots of advocacy. We can do more, but the government has to make some choices about how much it does in any single country.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Mr. Harris, I'm sorry. You're a bit over time, so congratulations on that.

We're going next to Mr. Williamson for five minutes.

[John Williamson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

To our two witnesses today, thank you very much for appearing. It's been very interesting.

Mr. Balloch, you had an interesting observation, or perhaps conclusion, which caught my attention: “Engagement has always been principally aimed at serving Canadian interests, and only indirectly at encouraging systemic internal change in China.” Could you elaborate on this a little more?

Are you summarizing the Government of Canada's policy? Was this the policy within the Department of Foreign Affairs or was it the policy from the ambassador's desk in Beijing?

[Howard Balloch]

It was the policy of every government that I served. I started looking at China intensely in the 1980s, when Mr. Mulroney was prime minister. That got upset for a little while because of the Tiananmen crisis, but he started to re-engage before the end of his time, and then Mr. Chrétien's and so on. It has been very much a multi-party consensus about the importance of China. Whether we've done it as well as we could have, that's another issue, but it's been throughout the government.

I remember governments of both governing parties saying to their ministers that it wasn't just Foreign Affairs. It was Foreign Affairs and all of the rest of them, the whole cabinet. Every department of government had to start taking China more seriously, for our interests. It was not because we were trying to change China, but because our interests counted.

[John Williamson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

Am I wrong in thinking that underlying that, whether it was the debate around granting—this is going back 30 years or at least 25 years—most favoured nation status, the WTO...? There was, at least as it was sold to the public, always an underlying emphasis that trade is good but trade will also result in a gradual change in China's outlook when it comes to being rules-based and when it comes to respect for human rights.

Internally, regarding trade, I can see how that would benefit Canada, but externally to the public there was always an underlying emphasis on rights.

[Howard Balloch]

Yes, and I think that, except for the last few years, personal freedoms in China grew substantially between 1978 and 2014. The legal system evolved in positive ways. It hasn't gotten to where we would have liked it to get. These were indirect changes brought about, in part, by their entering the WTO.

I can remember, when I was ambassador, Zhu Rongji saying to our Prime Minister, “Thank goodness we're there because now I can make the changes in China that we need to make, to make it a modern society.” They were intermingled, but our purpose, primarily, was to serve our interests.

[John Williamson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

In light of where we are today, should this trade focus continue, or is it time, perhaps, to put a greater emphasis on—and I think you've both been speaking to this today—where the relationship has not worked as well as we'd hoped, whether it's minorities being detained in the western part of the country or the two Canadians, and there are more actually, being detained as well?

We had someone here speaking from the department, saying that the focus is trade and engagement, and that is going to continue. Might we not want to reset that dial now and perhaps warn businesses in Canada that if they trade in China there are obvious risks, and for the Government of Canada to put a greater accent on the relationship on rights, internally, in China?

[Howard Balloch]

I wouldn't change our general balance of focus. Always we should be arguing for both and we should be trying to encourage positive change in China, which does serve our interest, which is to have China become a greater and more law-abiding part of the global community. We can't be unidimensional in this. We shouldn't be unidimensional only on the economic side.

[John Williamson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

However, your earlier comments suggested very much that we were unidimensional, that it was economics-based—

[Howard Balloch]

It was interests-based. It is in our interests to have our universities working together with China on finding scientific solutions to agricultural problems. It's in our interests to have our security agencies working with their Chinese counterparts on international crime and the flow of fentanyl and other drugs. Our interests are not based solely on trade or economics.

[John Williamson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

Sure.

[Howard Balloch]

They are very widespread.

[John Williamson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

I agree with that, and that is also a function of China's becoming a much bigger player as well.

[Howard Balloch]

Of course.

[John Williamson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

Thirty years ago, I don't think they were in a position to play the influential role they do today.

I think Mr. Saint-Jacques referenced free trade. Would you embark on a free trade agreement with China today, or do you think that should be put into the deep freeze?

[Howard Balloch]

I would embark—not today, because we have problems in our relationship—on encouraging China to enter into the comprehensive partnership we have in Asia with other countries, probably as a first step—

[John Williamson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

Is that the TPP you're talking about?

[Howard Balloch]

Yes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

I'm sorry to interrupt, but we're out of time.

I'm going now to Mr. Fragiskatos, for five minutes.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I apologize, because I'm not sure if it was Mr. Balloch or Mr. Saint-Jacques who made the point earlier about some within China thinking that Canada has been treated unfairly in recent months, in fact since December 2018.

It may have been Mr. Saint-Jacques.

Can you expand on that? Is this something you are hearing through your network of contacts, Mr. Saint-Jacques? Elaborate, perhaps, on what exactly you've been told.

[Guy Saint-Jacques]

It is linked to how Canada is perceived in China. In this case, it's clear that the issue of Mrs. Meng is coordinated in the office of President Xi Jinping. Therefore, now that he has absolute power and absolute authority, it's difficult for anyone to criticize him, but I've heard from various sources that some people who like Canada and appreciate what we have done in the past and know the potential for future collaboration are a bit dismayed at the status.... I know that Ambassador Barton is working to try to contact people, but, again, we should not expect any progress until Mrs. Meng is released.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you very much.

You also made a point in your opening, Mr. Saint-Jacques, about expanding our ties when it comes to artificial intelligence as a way of building a bridge. You offered a number of different ideas in that regard. Could you expand on that point?

[Guy Saint-Jacques]

I was expressing a concern because Canada is at the forefront with regard to artificial intelligence, and when you look at what's happening in China, you will see that facial recognition is now used in a very comprehensive way and a social credit system has been put in place whereby each citizen is given a number of points such that if you express criticism of the Chinese government you will lose points. After losing enough points, you can no longer take the high-speed train or travel by air.

I would like to avoid knowing in the future that Canadian technology was in fact used to help put that system in place. That's why we should review and explain to universities and various groups exactly what kind of collaboration is going on right now.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you for that clarification.

You also made the point in your opening remarks that we “should also look at ways to better support democracy in Hong Kong and Taiwan.” Are there any specifics on that? How exactly could Canada do that?