Canada-China Relations Committee on March 9th, 2020

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

Could I ask what it looks like to not tolerate? I'm trying to push you on that. What does that look like?

[Guy Saint-Jacques]

There are ways.... I would distinguish what you can do here, because we now see more and more instances of interference where we need to push back. I don't think we have been very good at reminding the Chinese of everything that Canada has done, especially through the $1-billion aid program that was terminated in 2013, which helped to create the dairy industry and improve the pork industry. We helped to create the ministry of environmental protection and so on. Everywhere I travelled in China, people would come to me and thank Canada for what we had done.

Again, Canada is well perceived. That's why there are children of leaders who have studied in Canada. Proportionate to our population, we have a much larger number of Chinese students than the U.S. does. Canada is very well perceived for all kinds of reasons.

In terms of pushing back, this has to be done in a respectful way. That's why I would argue that in some cases we have to go in jointly with partners, not with a megaphone, but just to say, “Here are our views.”

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Thank you, Mr. Oliphant.

Mr. Albas, you have five minutes.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank all of our witnesses for their service to this country. Their ongoing expertise here today is most welcome.

I'll start with Mr. Saint-Jacques.

You had an editorial in December 2019 in the Vancouver Sun. You argued that Canada “should react quickly and firmly when we find instances of interference in Canadian affairs, including among Canadians of Chinese origin, espionage activities or attempts to limit debate on Canadian campuses.” It seems your testimony today reaffirms that.

This weekend I happened to see, on social media, that a school district—No. 43 Coquitlam—superintendent was being interviewed and admitted, through that interaction, that her school district actually felt it was completely appropriate to be taking funds for different activities from the Chinese government. Now, I've never heard of a foreign state actually funding these things. I don't know all the details. I'd like to see those details come out.

Sam Cooper this morning wrote in his Twitter feed that since the early 2000s, a former PLA officer and developer Li Zhe started making rounds with Vancouver area mayors, obviously taking them to China on different junkets. This became quite an issue in 2007.

I've never heard of this happening at the local government level. Have you heard of these things? What should we be looking to do in this matter? In your estimation, how far up the political scale does this go?

[Guy Saint-Jacques]

Well, I'm not aware of cases where a local school would have received money from a Chinese entity.

This being said, I think that many schools and universities are struggling with, for instance, the Confucius Institute, because they don't have the resources to offer Mandarin training. Just to come back to what Mr. Fragiskatos was asking earlier, we need to develop our expertise on China, and that means learning Mandarin and getting more young people to visit China to learn the language. Universities are struggling. They don't have resources to create their own courses. Here comes the Confucius centre, which says, “We'll take care of this”, and of course, their curriculum is biased.

I would say also that a number of members of Parliament have been to China on trips paid for by the Chinese government, but in fact, I think we have done some of that ourselves in the past. Probably it would be necessary to clarify the rules that apply. On the one hand, again, I think we need to develop—and I would encourage you to develop—links with the Chinese Communist Party, because we need to understand them if we want to try to influence them, but at the same time, probably this should be done using our own money.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

Yes, and that was going to be my question. Who is paying for it, and what is, as Mr. Genuis remarked earlier, the quid pro quo attached to it?

Are there any other issues? I know that Waterloo had publicly issued its desire to know, from our security establishment, what parameters they should have when they're doing contracts with certain companies. At the time I asked, they said they had not heard anything back.

Should there be a public display of these things, in terms of what the policies should be? Should the government be developing those policies and giving that insight? Where appropriate, should the government be funding those kinds of cases when these contracts are having to be cut?

[Guy Saint-Jacques]

Well, in fact there are more efforts being made now to sensitize, especially academics, regarding some aspects of collaborating with China. When I was ambassador, I recall discussing with some academics. They were working on projects that were getting close to the commercial phase. I said, “Who owns the intellectual property on this?” They said, “Well, I'm a researcher. I don't...”, etc. I said, “No, no, you have to be concerned about this, because this could have high value.”

Also, we have to be concerned about technology that could have dual uses. Therefore, on this, I think the government has in place good controls to prevent this. That's why I was saying earlier that on artificial intelligence we need to have another look, because with things like facial recognition there are some dangers.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Monsieur Dubourg.

[Emmanuel Dubourg, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Good morning, gentlemen. Thank you for your testimony this morning.

I'd like to talk to you about Huawei. It is well known that this is one of the elements in our current relationship with China. I saw recently in the media that Canadian companies, such as Telus, are asking the government to allow Huawei to install its 5G network.

Mr. Saint-Jacques, you've talked a lot about Australia banning 5G, unlike the UK, which wants to move forward.

Although companies like Huawei claim to be independent, former ambassador David Mulroney advises the government to keep in mind that there is no truly independent Chinese company.

In this context, what can you tell us about the decision we need to make on Huawei?

[Guy Saint-Jacques]

You'll understand that there's a great diversity of views on this issue.

I think we need to pay special attention to security issues, because these are fundamental issues for our future prosperity.

I know there are many Canadian companies that have unfortunately had their technology stolen. Maybe they weren't careful enough. That's why I was saying earlier that we have to react and lay charges every time something like this is discovered.

As far as Huawei is concerned, I think the memorandum of understanding that was put in place to allow it to work in Canada has worked well. All its equipment is tested before it is used in Canada. The Communications Security Establishment is doing an excellent job of that. It's important.

As I said in my remarks, perhaps the solution would be to say that all listed companies are invited. This would force Huawei to make a strategic decision: should it create a company listed in Canada, which would be listed on the TSX Venture Exchange in Toronto? This could bring more transparency to its operations, especially if there are Canadians on its board of directors.

Of course, we must continue to monitor it very closely to ensure that there are no problems. The 5G is much more complex than 3G or 4G, but Canada will have to make a Canadian decision on this, taking into account all points of view.

[Emmanuel Dubourg, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

I thank you for suggesting these potential solutions.

Very quickly, like my colleague Mr. Oliphant, I would like to return to the cases of Michael Kovrig and Michael Spavor.

You have both been ambassadors to China, and Mr. Saint-Jacques explained how long this process could take. If you were currently ambassador to China, what other action would you take to ensure that these two gentlemen are released more quickly?

[Guy Saint-Jacques]

This is an extremely difficult situation. The previous government faced the same difficulty in the cases of Kevin and Julia Garratt and Huseyin Celil, who is still being held in Urumqi, Xinjiang. These issues are very difficult and require a consistent and coherent approach and repeating the same messages.

In this case, as soon as China began to apply punitive measures against Canadian trade, there should have been an immediate response. In the case of canola, we should have gone to the World Trade Organization, WTO, right away to protest. China is a member of the WTO, so you have to use that kind of forum.

I think we need to show China everything we won't do to help it. There is a lot of collaboration between our countries, especially in the area of health care—China envies the Canadian system—and in the area of stock market and financial controls. We can help in a number of areas. So we have to tell them that until things improve, we will not help them.

[Emmanuel Dubourg, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Fine. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Mr. Bergeron, you have two and a half minutes.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Would you have gone as far as retaliatory measures in addition to an appeal to the World Trade Organization?

[Guy Saint-Jacques]

I think we need to react. We now have a $51-billion trade deficit with China. That worries me.

Why don't we do more extensive inspections, for example, to make sure that children's toys coming into Canada do not contain lead paint?

In addition, 70% of the apple juice and 60% of the frozen fish in Canada comes from China. Are we sure it's safe to eat? We might have some surprises on that side.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

It is therefore a matter of using the same strategy as the Chinese and applying phytosanitary measures to ensure the safety of the products.

[Guy Saint-Jacques]

If we adopt a laissez-faire attitude and let ourselves be stepped on,

you end up as roadkill.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

This is very interesting.

I'd like to address the issue of university funding, among others. This opens up a broad issue, the underfunding of our universities. This obviously involves not only the provincial and Quebec governments, but also the federal government, through its transfers to the provinces.

Beyond that, Mr. Balloch referred, as did another witness earlier, to the need for closer collaboration with the provinces on health and education issues.

What would you recommend we do in that connection?

[Howard Balloch]

We must be very strict that any financing that comes into the country comes into it in ways that are transparent, and also that it is used for the purposes for which it is intended. I am sure you will talk to university presidents. I have met with university presidents to talk about this, to make sure there are no strings attached about what the financing does.

Of course, our provinces are entirely in charge of education, and at the secondary school level I agree with Mr. Saint-Jacques that it is not a bad thing to have some funding for Mandarin training and so on.

By the way, Canada—

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

I'm sorry to interrupt, but we have to go on to Mr. Harris.

Mr. Harris, you have two and a half minutes.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you.

I'd like to let you continue, but perhaps you'll have another chance afterwards. I have only two and a half minutes, but I'm interested in the question raised by one of your other colleagues, Joseph Caron, who was ambassador from 2001 to 2005.

He was talking about human rights and suggested that our dialogue with China should be at both levels: with the government and with the people as well. I think some reference has been made to the people of China being a different category. He said, “Tangible programs, not just statements, must be put in place for long-term impacts and results.”

Do both of you or either of you have any ideas about what that might look like in terms of tangible, specific programs, not just protests or bringing it up every time you meet with leaders and things like that?

[Howard Balloch]

I'll go quickly because I'll follow up from what I was saying.

In the past, we have funded Canadian studies in Chinese universities. Our embassy has engaged in social media in reaching out to the people. Our network of diplomatic posts in China is large. Having our diplomats go out to universities and go out to the centres that are the most open towards change in China is something that we should be doing all the time.

There are a lot of people in China who welcome change and who look to countries like Canada for inspiration about how their country will change. We should encourage that all the time, and there are a lot of programs that we can do to do that.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

On that point, it was noted by Ambassador Barton when he was with us and talked about the numbers of Canadian staff serving in China, but also, it was critiqued by another former diplomat, who said that we have a lot of trade commissioners but we don't have sufficient capacity concerning political and advocacy work. Is that true?

[Howard Balloch]

I'm going to answer that right away, because that particular former diplomat has been spouting that for a long time.