Canada-China Relations Committee on Dec. 8th, 2020

[Dominic Barton]

Yes, the Indian ambassador is a very good friend here, very knowledgeable, obviously, about the region, but also about China. We not only talked about the conflicts; we actually had a broader group about why this occurred—was it a strategy, or was it just a conflict that blew out, if you will?—to try to get a sense of it, of what the meaning behind it was, because it's such a significant event.

He obviously knows a lot about Tibet and about the Tibetan people from his end. He was one of the people who said, “Please go. I don't think I'll be going very soon.”

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Has the Indian ambassador raised any concerns with you recently about Canada-India relations in respect of China?

[Dominic Barton]

The last time I saw him was two weeks ago, so maybe when I see him again he'll raise some issues, but he has not.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Ambassador, I have one last question.

Could you elaborate on the interactions you had with Tibetans away from Chinese officials? You mentioned the bookstore visit. If there were other interactions free of Chinese oversight, please elaborate.

[Dominic Barton]

Unfortunately, I don't speak Tibetan. Because I was wearing a Canada Goose jacket and I looked pretty geeky, some people came up to me when I was in the markets and said, “Where are you from? Why are you here?” They had no idea I was an ambassador. They didn't, frankly, care about that; it was, “Why are you here?”

They obviously spoke English, because they felt comfortable enough to come in, but that happened in the marketplaces.

It also happened in the greenhouse. I mentioned visiting these greenhouses. I spoke with some of the workers there about their day: “Tell me about your day, when you wake up. Give me a diary analysis,”—that type of thing.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Thank you, Your Excellency.

Perhaps Mr. Virani, who now has five minutes, will ask you to follow up, or not.

Mr. Virani, you have five minutes, please.

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Here is a sentence for you in Tibetan, Ambassador: Ngai-ming-la Dominic yin . That means “My name is Dominic.”

I want to ask you three things somewhat quickly since I only have five minutes.

In keeping with where Mr. Chong left off, you mentioned you were at the Potala Palace and Norbulingka. These are very significant places, the regular palace and the summer palace of His Holiness the Dalai Lama. You also mentioned the Samye Monastery.

Can you tell us about what you observed from the people there in terms of overt devotion in Tibetan Buddhist practices? What was happening on the ground? Were people professing this freedom of religion that is ostensibly in the Chinese constitution or not? What did it seem like to you?

[Dominic Barton]

This is, again, just my observation for the honourable member to then interpret because you probably have much deeper experience.

What I saw in the Potala Palace and Norbulingka while we were there was there were pilgrims who were in the facilities. You saw very old people, really old people, and very young children. While we were there, they were touring around.

One of the questions we had been asked by the Tibetan experts in Canada was whether they are able to make donations, or is it coming from the party type of thing. There was money everywhere. People were making donations in all sorts of different places. It looked normal. It was very crowded in some of the areas we walked through. It felt like that was happening.

The second point I would make, especially with that person on the poverty alleviation program, is I want to tell you an impression. We were there doing the interview with him on his main floor. It has pictures of Mao Zedong, red books for all sorts of different awards.

We went up to the second floor, which they really didn't want us to, and that's where we saw this Buddhist shrine. What I would say is on the surface people may say, “Look, I'm following what the government's doing,” but the religious belief and the commitment I felt is deep. It's there.

One of the things I worry about acting up in the way-off future is when the Dalai Lama passes we need to be prepared for the emotion and the commitment to this. I felt like it's there. That's my impression.

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Let's talk a bit about that. Let's talk about His Holiness and the middle-way approach.

You saw the motion here. You voiced your support for that motion for restarting that dialogue.

How do we get that across the finish line so that it isn't this intimidating idea, but rather it's something where Canada plays a constructive role to advance the middle-way understanding of it and promote that Sino-Tibetan dialogue, which was once occurring, and then just came to a standstill about seven or eight years ago?

I'd like your thoughts on that.

[Dominic Barton]

First of all, I think we should keep pushing for dialogue, and looking for this common ground, because a lot of elements in that I think are what's already existing in the Chinese constitution about what is in an autonomous region.

I think there's a lot of fear, obviously, on the Chinese side that there is going to be exposure to all sorts of issues, and they're going to get all sorts of backlash. There's a trust level of how that has to happen.

I would argue that we should make sure that these discussions are done privately and not in the public space. That would be a disaster, and I don't think it would happen, but if it was private, it would work.

I look at what's happening—I have no comment on how it worked or whatever—in the discussions going on between the Vatican and the government, which have gone through various different stages. I guess let's keep trying. Let's show that we're going to tell the truth, and call things out as we see them, but we're trying to get at—

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

I just have a minute left here, Ambassador. I want to get one more question in, which is this point about we're desperately hoping that this isn't your only visit, that there are future visits in this issue of reciprocal access. How do we as parliamentarians facilitate that with you?

I have always been taken by the fact that there are lots of grandiose claims about the development and the progress that has been taking place in the TAR and elsewhere. If that's true, ostensibly the Chinese should have nothing to hide.

How do we get to that stage where future visits occur, including potentially maybe future parliamentary delegations visiting either inside the TAR or those ethnically Tibetan areas among those nine prefectures? Do you have any thoughts on that?

[Dominic Barton]

Yes. I think we have to keep pushing for that. I think the ambassador visits are actually one start, the first one, obviously. They were very careful about not publicizing it or instrumentalizing it. They wanted to be careful we weren't doing the same thing so you build trust.

There were a group of journalists who went around the end of October. There are two very good articles to read about their observations, again, limited.

That's a good start. I think what we're encouraging is let's have more ambassadors go. It shouldn't be selective. Let everyone go. Then be more precise. You look for this versus that. Go to the rural areas. Go to rural schools.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Thank you, Mr. Virani.

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Thank you very much, Ambassador.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Mr. Bergeron, you have the floor for two minutes and 30 seconds.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Two minutes and 30 seconds, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Yes. I'm following the order adopted by the committee.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Yes, but we have started a second round.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

It's the next round. Then I'll start again.

Is that okay?

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Okay.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Go ahead, please.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Okay then.

Excellency, I would like to come back to the answer that you were unable to complete about the Chinese authorities' claim to be able to appoint the people to represent various religions.

You mentioned the fact that Beijing actually did want to appoint Catholic priests instead of the Vatican, which led to negotiations between the Vatican and the authorities of the People's Republic of China.

Since there is this precedent where the negotiations seemed to be positive between the Vatican and the authorities of the People's Republic of China, do you see a glimmer of hope in finding a solution for the reincarnation of the Dalai Lama?

[Dominic Barton]

Mr. Chair, again, I was using the example to show that there are other dialogues that actually occur. That should be something that could give us some hope that we could have more dialogues in that way. I think it's critical that people are able to do it.

There's something I'm very proud of here, by they way. I think it was Ambassador Mulroney who put it in place. We have a very big Catholic service here in the embassy every Sunday. There's a kind of encouragement of that.

I think the issue is that we need to make sure there are small steps of trust, if you will. That's why I think it needs to be done privately and quietly, but I think we should be pushing for it. As was said before, if it is as good as they say, let more people see it. We're not suggesting that the Tibet Autonomous Region become a separate country. It fits within the system. Let's figure out how we get the dialogue moving. I think small steps can be made to build trust.

Hopefully, as in the case with the Vatican.... Again, I'm not familiar with the details of those conversations; all I know is that they're happening. I hope that leads to something that's constructive for both sides, other things too.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Thank you very much, Mr. Barton.

Thank you very much, Mr. Bergeron.

Now it's Mr. Harris for two and a half minutes, please.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you, Chair.

At the end of this discussion, on behalf of the Tibetan people, I want to encourage this improvement and the attempts to increase that dialogue as much as possible. I know that the Tibetan people are very concerned about that and are looking forward to reconciliation.

I want to touch on one thing while we have you here. I think you're familiar with the trade agreement with China called the TPPA, the trade promotion and protection agreement. We talked in this committee about Chinese influence in Canada in some ways, but also about the involvement in actions in Canada, buying energy, interest in minerals and other activities.

Can you tell us whether or not the TPPA is important to China? Has it ever been raised with you as a concern of theirs that it might not be followed? Is it something that you think they rely on in terms of their relationship with Canada and their interest in developing in Canada?