Canada-China Relations Committee on Dec. 8th, 2020

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Mr. Chair, I have a point of order before I start my round of questioning. I had received a note from the clerk suggesting that you had agreed to 15 minutes after the ambassador's testimony to consider our motion. I certainly don't want to interrupt the questions for the ambassador, but I do want to get the assurance that we will have that time at the end to move the motion.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

I don't think I have the authority to do that on behalf of the committee. I'm certainly happy to have the discussion. I'm available for that time. It's up to the committee, obviously, whether it goes on for that length of time.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Colleagues, could I get a quick signal check from everybody else? It's important for us to move this motion. I don't want to disrupt people's final half-hour with the ambassador. It shouldn't take more than 10 minutes. Is there consensus to allow me to do that?

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Mr. Fragiskatos, on the same point of order.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

I will otherwise move the motion now, which I'm entitled to do. I want to work in a collaborative way. I've given notice of this motion and we need to move the motion, but I would rather do it at the end of the ambassador's testimony, if there's agreement to do that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Mr. Fragiskatos, on the same point of order.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

I was just looking for clarification and to hear other colleagues' thoughts on that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Thank you. Does anyone else have a comment?

Mr. Harris, please.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

I would agree as long as it's limited to 10 minutes or so.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Thank you very much.

Is there anyone else?

Mr. Oliphant.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

I was going to say the same. I was still not clear whether it was 10 minutes before 8:30 or 10 minutes after 8:30. I am prepared to go 10 minutes after 8:30, but at that point, I would ask that the chair ask for unanimous consent to continue. If we have 10 minutes after 8:30, that would be okay.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

I'm very happy to proceed in that fashion.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

All right.

You're on, Mr. Genuis. Your time is 10 minutes, please.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to my colleagues for that.

Just to follow on Mr. Oliphant's comment on the issue of Uighurs, I would observe, at least from my perspective, that the song may be the same but the tone is quite different between our different ambassadors. I do appreciate that Mr. Oliphant has wished to clarify that the government has not yet recognized that the treatment of the Uighurs constitutes a genocide.

Ambassador, do you think there is any reasonable likelihood that China would agree to admit independent investigators to assess the situation?

[Dominic Barton]

Mr. Chair, I think we should be pushing for it. I don't know whether they're going to be allowing it.

I understand your concern about this, honourable member, because we want to have a very independent view of it. We should continue, I think, putting the pressure on to get that. These reports have to be very worrying to people. I think we should continue to pile on the pressure to do this.

I think it's going to take others too. The UN has to really push for this again.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

If you look at Tibet and Xinjiang, we haven't had independent observers assessing the situation in 50 years, so yes, let's keep pushing for this. But Professor Irwin Cotler, a former Liberal minister, has testified before another committee that Canada has a responsibility to protect. That responsibility to protect is evoked even when there is credible evidence short of certainty, but credible evidence, to suggest genocide. We have a responsibility to protect. We can ask for investigators, but our responsibility to protect under the convention is triggered.

Do you believe that Canada has a responsibility to protect in international law vis-à-vis Uighurs?

[Dominic Barton]

I think what Canada needs to do is push for access to be able to get the evidence and needs to be asking, “Why are you not allowing us to do this? If you're not concerned about it or you think that these reports are false, let us in, or let the appropriate”—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Ambassador, I understand, and you have said this. Mine, however, was a specific question. Do you—does the Government of Canada—believe that Canada has a responsibility in international law to protect the Uighurs?

[Dominic Barton]

My view is that when there are human rights issues that concern us as, for example, in what's being reported to be happening in Xinjiang with the Uighurs, we need to be pushing as hard as we possibly can to get the investigation and the independent reporting done in order to be able to see what is happening. We need to get—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Ambassador. I think the question has been asked and responded to, so let's proceed.

Does the Government of Canada support the belt and road initiative?

[Dominic Barton]

We don't have a view of supporting or not the belt and road initiative. What we want to make sure is that investments that are being made are following ESG standards when they are made, that there is no pressure put on various countries and so forth. The governance of the way in which this is done is very important.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Is that happening in practice, though? Are we seeing, in your view, examples of this pressure?

[Dominic Barton]

It would be good to talk to experts about what those various projects look like in various countries. I don't have that expertise in relation to what has happened in central parts of Asia or in Africa.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

It sounds as though what you're saying is that the Government of Canada does not have a position on BRI. It doesn't have a position to support, doesn't have a position to be concerned; it's basically totally agnostic on the matter.

Is that a fair synopsis of what you're stating is the government's position?