Evidence of meeting #12 for Canada-China Relations in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was ambassador.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Dominic Barton  Ambassador Extraordinary and Plenipotentiary of Canada to the People's Republic of China, Embassy of Canada to the People's Republic of China
Clerk of the Committee  Ms. Marie-France Lafleur

6:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Geoff Regan

I call this meeting to order. Welcome to meeting number 12 of the Special Committee on Canada-China Relations.

Pursuant to the motion adopted on Wednesday, September 23, 2020, the committee is meeting on its study of Canada-China relations.

Today's meeting is in a hybrid format. The meeting is also televised and will be available on the House of Commons website.

To ensure an orderly meeting I'd like to outline a few rules to follow.

Members and witnesses may speak in the official language of their choice. Interpretation services are available for this meeting. You have the choice at the bottom of your screen of “floor”, “English” or “French”. Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name, unless you are a witness and you've just been asked a question by one of the members. If you are participating by video conference, please click on the microphone icon to unmute your mike.

Let me remind you that all comments from members and from witnesses must be addressed through the chair.

Please speak slowly and clearly.

When you're not speaking, your mike should be on mute.

I would now like to welcome His Excellency Dominic Barton, Ambassador Extraordinary and Plenipotentiary of Canada to the People's Republic of China. As well, we have Ms. Joya Donnelly, counsellor, political affairs.

We also have Mr. Shawn Steil, executive director, greater China policy and coordination.

Thank you for being here.

Ambassador Barton, please proceed with your opening remarks.

6:30 p.m.

Dominic Barton Ambassador Extraordinary and Plenipotentiary of Canada to the People's Republic of China, Embassy of Canada to the People's Republic of China

Bonsoir, Mr. Chair and honourable members. Thank you for the invitation to appear before you tonight.

I'm grateful for the opportunity to discuss my Tibet trip. I know it's an area of great interest for Canadians and it is at the forefront in our efforts to promote rights and freedoms in China.

I also welcome the invitation from the committee to provide an update on a few developments since my last appearance in February.

As Minister Champagne highlighted during his testimony to the committee last month, we need to be smart and coordinated when it comes to our relationship with China, and we need to work with others. Countries all around the world are evolving their approach to China and all recognize the complexity of the relationship. I think Canadians understand that there are times when we need to challenge China. We need to work with partners to hold them to account. At the same time, there are times when we need to co-operate economically and as we face global issues such as climate change. I'm tremendously proud of the work our embassy staff do every day to navigate this complex relationship.

Our government has clearly laid out my top priority, and that's the safety and security of Canadians, leading with the release of Michael Kovrig and Michael Spavor as well as clemency for Robert Schellenberg.

Equally, the promotion and protection of human rights is an integral part of our work. We continue to raise both the arbitrary detention of Canadians and human rights issues with the Chinese government in public, in private and in collaboration with like-minded countries.

Our mission network in China has a host of programs that seek to empower progressive voices and shine a light on existing difficulties. For example, in the last month we've hosted a two-day event on women's empowerment to mark 25 years since the Beijing world conference on women. We've also engaged with children of migrant workers and with family members of human rights defenders.

We are concerned by the decline in civil and political rights in China. We, along with the international community, have raised our deep concerns publicly, and Canada has taken concrete measures following the imposition of the national security legislation in Hong Kong. We remain deeply concerned by the troubling reports of human rights violations in the Xinjiang Uighur Autonomous Region, and the government has repeatedly raised our concerns, including most recently at the UN, alongside 38 other countries. We remain concerned by the continuous restrictions on the freedoms of Tibetans.

This brings me to the focus of this presentation, which is my visit to Tibet. I visited the Tibet Autonomous Region with nine other diplomats at the invitation of the People's Republic of China. In recent years, as you know, access to Tibet has become increasingly challenging, including for foreign government officials. Despite repeated requests, this was the first time a Canadian diplomat had visited Tibet since 2015. My visit was from October 26 to 30, and we visited the Tibetan capital of Lhasa as well as the Shannan prefecture.

I see the invitation in itself, coming after five years of consistent requests on our part, as positive. We were pleased that the Government of China extended this invitation, but I was also very aware that our visit would be controlled and focused on what they wanted us to see. The decision to participate was not taken lightly, and before doing so, I spoke with representatives of the Tibetan community in Canada, with Canadian academics who specialize in Tibetan studies and with experts around the world who work on human rights issues to seek their views. All agreed that it was important for me to participate given that so few have had access to the Tibet Autonomous Region in recent years.

We should also remember that few Tibetans have had the opportunity to connect with foreigners. I felt that it was important for Tibetans to see that outsiders still show up and care deeply about their situation, and for them to see that Canada cares. For these reasons, and as part of a broader engagement on Tibetan issues, I decided to go.

We had a very packed program over three days. Most activities would fit under the themes of economic development, environmental protection, education, culture and religion. What I saw was not the entire picture on any issue, but I nonetheless want to share with the committee what I was able to observe.

On the economic development front, I visited an industrial park with close to 140 greenhouses growing cash crops. I saw busy stores and markets selling Tibetan goods. I met a Tibetan businesswoman who ran a hotel, with Tibetans in management and at the working level. She told me numerous times that the hotel chain, being Tibetan-owned, needed more foreign tourists to come.

I visited a village where people had been resettled as part of a poverty alleviation program. There, I met a man and his family who were nomads, but he now works in the construction trade. I was able to see the beautiful Tibetan Buddhist shrine he meticulously built on the second floor of his house.

Chinese officials often talk to you in numbers and statistics. They point to government statistics, such as absolute poverty having been completely alleviated in the Tibet Autonomous Region as of 2019, or the fact they have close to 100% broadband access across the region. Our own assessment is that inequality remains a critical issue.

Resettlement and displacement of Tibetans are stark reminders that freedom of choice and the ability to live out one's cultural or other values are equally a measure of well-being or prosperity, as is material wealth.

Our group made other visits to places, including the Lhalu Wetlands, known as the lungs of Lhasa, and saw a conservation area teeming with wildlife. We visited the Lhasa experimental primary school, where I saw mostly Tibetan and some Han students being taught primarily in Mandarin, with some teaching in Tibetan, for example, classes in calligraphy, chess and opera. This school was impressive, but I recognized that most schools in Tibet were probably not of that caliber. It would be important to see schools in the rural areas, where almost 70% of the people live.

I visited the Tibetan Traditional Medical University and the Tibetan Thangka Academy of paintings. We visited cultural and religious sites, including the Potala Palace and Norbulingka. Both were profoundly moving, a reminder of the incredible religious and human accomplishments of the Tibetan people and of the importance of ensuring their rights.

At the Samye Monastery, we saw young monks studying. The visit was led by monks and we were able to speak with them. During my entire visit, top of mind were Canada’s concerns about the human rights situation affecting Tibetans, including restrictions on freedom of expression, movement, religion or belief, and the protection of linguistic and cultural rights.

I was able to raise these issues during official meetings and in side conversations with officials in Tibet. I raised specific cases of concern with Chinese authorities while there. I sought out opportunities to speak with local Tibetans. Those whom I met expressed great pride in their culture, and it was evident that the Tibetan language and cultural preservation remain very important to them. In speaking with officials, I advocated for unhindered future access to Tibet for UN agencies, academics, researchers and journalists, as well as return visits by other Canadian representatives.

While my visit to Tibet was short, I hope it opens doors to more contact with Tibetans inside China, and demonstrates that Canada is still very much engaged in the promotion of their rights and freedoms.

Though my appearance today is to be largely about my visit to Tibet, as I understand it, I want to further address the cases of Mr. Kovrig and Mr. Spavor; something which I know is very important to members of this committee and all Canadians. As I said earlier, this is my top priority.

This week, December 10, will mark the second anniversary of their arbitrary arrest and detention. We continue to call on China to immediately release both men. In October, after a hiatus of many months, and much effort by the embassy and the minister, we secured on-site virtual consular access with Mr. Kovrig and Mr. Spavor. I have since met with both of them on two occasions to confirm their health and well-being. The resilience and strength they have shown has been an inspiration to me, as I know it has been to many Canadians.

In closing, this committee plays a vital role to understand the difficult and complex nature of Canada’s relationship with China. It also plays a crucial role in the national conversation we are having about Canada’s evolving approach to China. The Canadian Parliament, the Canadian government and the Canadian people have a lot at stake in getting this approach right.

With that, I am happy to take your questions.

Merci . Thugs rje che.

6:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Geoff Regan

Thank you, Your Excellency.

The first round of questions will go to Mr. Genuis for six minutes.

December 8th, 2020 / 6:40 p.m.

Conservative

Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB

Tashi delek.

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, Ambassador.

The majority of my questions in this round will focus on Tibet, but I do want to start with a follow-up from your last appearance. Mr. Barton, the last time you appeared before this committee, you made a controversial statement about Mr. Huseyin Celil's citizenship status.

Could you please confirm today that you do recognize that Mr. Celil is a Canadian citizen, and could you please update this committee on all the efforts you have made with respect to his case?

6:40 p.m.

Ambassador Extraordinary and Plenipotentiary of Canada to the People's Republic of China, Embassy of Canada to the People's Republic of China

Dominic Barton

Yes, I want to reassert that Mr. Huseyin Celil is a Canadian citizen.

After the last testimony, I spoke with his wife just to reinforce to her and the family the importance of his case. Then we raised his case with the Ministry of Foreign Affairs to say that we want access to him, that we want to understand how he is doing.

We have subsequently followed up. As I mentioned, the Chinese only recognize his Chinese citizenship, not his Canadian citizenship, and he is Canadian. We said that we need to make sure that his family has access and is able to understand what his well-being is.

6:40 p.m.

Conservative

Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB

Thank you for that response.

Is securing the release of Mr. Celil as important to you as securing the release of the two Michaels?

6:40 p.m.

Ambassador Extraordinary and Plenipotentiary of Canada to the People's Republic of China, Embassy of Canada to the People's Republic of China

Dominic Barton

Yes, it is.

I think we have, as you know, over 120 consular cases where people are in detention. While the public focus is on, obviously, Michael Kovrig and Michael Spavor, and that's where we spend a lot of time, there is a very large consular team here, where we look after everyone and make sure that we get access and drive it through. There's a lot of effort—

6:45 p.m.

Conservative

Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB

Thank you for that response. I think that you know we're going to continue to follow up on that case.

Reuters reported earlier this year that China “is pushing growing numbers of Tibetan rural laborers off the land and into recently built military-style training centers where they are turned into factory workers, mirroring a program in the western Xinjiang region that rights groups have branded coercive labor.”

You've been to Xinjiang before. I wonder if you think similar tactics are being used in Tibet as we know are being used in Xinjiang.

6:45 p.m.

Ambassador Extraordinary and Plenipotentiary of Canada to the People's Republic of China, Embassy of Canada to the People's Republic of China

Dominic Barton

Adrian Zenz wrote a very good report—I believe it was in September—which we read before we went there, saying that roughly 500,000 people have been put into those facilities. We were not able to see that because of where we were in Lhasa and Shannan prefecture, so we were not able to see that.

Clearly, there is an effort going on to take people from the land, if you will, with a view to try to improve the poverty alleviation situation. They're being moved into industrial jobs. We weren't able to get any sense of that or of what that looked like, but we are very much aware of that.

6:45 p.m.

Conservative

Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB

The Chinese government asserts that all of these relocation operations are voluntary. Human Rights Watch has conducted interviews, finding the opposite, essentially. I would maybe disagree with your characterization of the intentions behind these policies as being based on economic development. I see that as the veneer but not the reality and not the intention.

Are we seeing birth suppression in Tibet similar to what we're seeing in Xinjiang: forced abortion, forced insertion of IUDs and forced sterilization?

6:45 p.m.

Ambassador Extraordinary and Plenipotentiary of Canada to the People's Republic of China, Embassy of Canada to the People's Republic of China

Dominic Barton

We spoke to the people we were able to visit. I mentioned that we saw two families. We broke the group up into two parts. That question was actually asked. Again, we had party officials surrounding us—I'm just telling you what we heard. We asked that question: “Are there any limits on the number of children you can have or your grandchildren can have, and so forth?” They said no.

We have to look at the statistics to see what's actually happening with the birth rate. That's why I think we have to get more access. I think that's the critical factor here.

6:45 p.m.

Conservative

Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB

Thank you.

Were you ever able to interact with Tibetans without Chinese government monitoring?

6:45 p.m.

Ambassador Extraordinary and Plenipotentiary of Canada to the People's Republic of China, Embassy of Canada to the People's Republic of China

Dominic Barton

Yes, I was—I was actually quite surprised at that—on a number of occasions.

One was early in the morning, mainly because I couldn't sleep, to be honest. I had difficulty adjusting to the altitude. I was up at five in the morning and wandered the streets. There was no one behind me. There weren't a lot of people on the street, but I saw people. During the lunch periods, we were allowed to move around. I tried to go into as many bookstores as I could. I was there basically by myself. I was a bit surprised. I'm sure there were cameras looking at me.

6:45 p.m.

Conservative

Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB

Thank you. I just want to get one more question in before my time is up.

Did you raise or discuss the whereabouts of the Panchen Lama or the Government of China's efforts to control the reincarnation of the Dalai Lama?

6:45 p.m.

Ambassador Extraordinary and Plenipotentiary of Canada to the People's Republic of China, Embassy of Canada to the People's Republic of China

Dominic Barton

Yes, I did raise the question about the Panchen Lama the Dalai Lama had selected. We raised that. We asked, “Where is he? How is he doing? How do we get to see him?” Their response was, “There is one Panchen Lama, and that's not the person. He's fine, and he doesn't want to speak to people.” We raised that, and it wasn't just raised by me. It was raised by other members in the group.

6:45 p.m.

Conservative

Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB

And the reincarnation question?

6:45 p.m.

Ambassador Extraordinary and Plenipotentiary of Canada to the People's Republic of China, Embassy of Canada to the People's Republic of China

Dominic Barton

The reincarnation question, there were assertions by that where the government officials talked about the golden urn process and how that historically has been used—

6:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Geoff Regan

Thank you. I'm sorry I have to interrupt, but Mr. Genuis' time is up.

Now we'll go to Mr. Fragiskatos for six minutes, please.

6:45 p.m.

Liberal

Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON

Ambassador, thank you for being here and for the work that you are doing.

I do want to focus on Tibet here but I would be remiss if on behalf of my constituents, many of whom have contacted me over the past couple of years now about Michael Kovrig and Michael Spavor.... I know you are limited in what you can say because of the privacy law. Can you comment to this committee and to Canadians about their general health and well-being?

6:50 p.m.

Ambassador Extraordinary and Plenipotentiary of Canada to the People's Republic of China, Embassy of Canada to the People's Republic of China

Dominic Barton

As you said outright, I'm limited by the Privacy Act in what I can discuss in any detail.

What I would say is they are both very healthy physically and mentally. I have to tell you I'm deeply inspired by their resilience and their mindset. It's incredible, given what they're going through. The other thing, and what I just realized too in talking with the families, they're Canadians who have families who are worried about them, who haven't seen them and are worried about their health, their mental health, but they're very strong. It's remarkable.

6:50 p.m.

Liberal

Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON

They're both extraordinary individuals. Thank you for that, Ambassador.

I want to ask now about Tibet. What would you say to those who are of the view that Canada can only do so much, can exert itself only so much on such issues because it is a middle power and our reach is limited? While well-intentioned, our reach will always be limited. That's the view in foreign policy circles and other circles. What would your response be to that?

6:50 p.m.

Ambassador Extraordinary and Plenipotentiary of Canada to the People's Republic of China, Embassy of Canada to the People's Republic of China

Dominic Barton

Mr. Chair, my response would be that while we're a middle power, we're an important and influential power, I think particularly because of our views on human rights, our multiculturalism, and also I think our own experience. We have not done such a great job ourselves with the indigenous people here. We speak from some experience of maybe how we can do things differently. It's important to have some humility in that, but I think it garners respect that we know what we're talking about.

We're a country that is able to have a very vibrant, important French community that can have votes about whether they want to separate or not. I think we represent a lot of very good things. It's important we're there. Yes, we can't force people to do things, but by asking questions, by showing up, by working with other countries, by continuing to keep this on the table, by working with the Tibetans, what I've learned—because I'm not a Tibetan expert—the community that we have in Canada, which is very vibrant, very thoughtful, there is a lot we can do. I think particularly in these times of change it's important that we do stand up for that and there is a lot we can do.

6:50 p.m.

Liberal

Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON

Thank you, Ambassador. I'm inclined to very much agree with you, but I want to ask, because you raised some really interesting points, did you put that perspective forward? If so, who did you raise such points with, and how did you do it? By what means did you decide to put that message, whether it was to the Chinese authorities or to others?

6:50 p.m.

Ambassador Extraordinary and Plenipotentiary of Canada to the People's Republic of China, Embassy of Canada to the People's Republic of China

Dominic Barton

There were probably as many Chinese and Tibetan Chinese officials with us on the trip and we had a lot of bus rides. There were a lot of informal conversations about that.

Then when we had the meeting with the deputy party secretary, I raised that issue with the deputy party secretary that we have some experience and we have some views on how we can help. I think it was seen. There's the fact that Canada was asked to come to this. A lot of countries want to do it. I honestly don't know why they asked us. A lot of other countries would like to go. I have to believe there's some sense that we want to try to help play some role. It was informally with the deputy party secretary but there was a lot of that sort of discussion.

6:50 p.m.

Liberal

Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON

Understood, Ambassador. I have one minute left for my last question.

I want to ask you to what extent you have been engaged with ambassadors from other countries, other like-minded liberal democracies on this very question, on the question of Tibet.