Canada-China Relations Committee on Feb. 25th, 2021

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Minister, and thank you to the officials for being here.

Minister, I have a question about the Xinjiang region of China and goods that have been produced through forced labour by the Uighur minority and by other minorities. What is Canada doing to ensure that such goods do not enter our country?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Mr. Fragiskatos, thank you for the question. It's an important one.

Let me be very clear. We denounce in the strongest possible terms the human rights abuses that are taking place in Xinjiang and against the Uighur people. We have expressed that concern at a number of different international and domestic levels already. There are economic measures that are imposed with respect to goods produced where there have been human rights complaints.

To give you more specifics, if they're available, I'd invite the president of CBSA to talk about how those goods might be managed upon entering the country.

[John Ossowski, President, Canada Border Services Agency]

Thank you, Minister.

Certainly we're paying very close attention to this. As the committee might be aware, as a result of the signing of the Canada-U.S.-Mexico trade agreement last July, new rules came into force. The lead department on this one is Employment and Social Development Canada. They're currently doing their work to provide us with reports and that give guidance to my frontline officers to start targeting specific shipments that arrive that might be subject to these new regulations.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Also, Peter, if I may add as well, I want to be clear that in Canadian law, all goods that are mined, manufactured or produced wholly or in part by forced labour are prohibited under law from entering Canada. CBSA prohibits such goods from entering Canada when there is sufficient evidence to do so. They may also be subject to a more in-depth secondary examination. CBSA uses a risk-management approach to determine which goods entering Canada require that examination and may be prohibited because they originated in an area where forced labour is being used.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you very much for that.

Minister, earlier you talked about foreign interference. You gave a number of examples of how foreign interference takes place, and you mentioned elections. Certainly, it is completely unacceptable, any time that it happens to any democracy, when foreign interference affects the stability of electoral systems.

How do you feel about the security of our election system in Canada? Are there threats to it from a foreign interference lens? What has the government done to guard against that as much as possible?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Thank you again, Peter, for a very important question.

First of all, let me be very clear. I believe the threats are real. We have seen more than ample evidence of the hostile activities of state actors—including the People's Republic of China—attempting to interfere inappropriately and unacceptably in Canadian interests, including in democratic processes in this country.

I want to assure you, although I can't speak of specific incidents or investigations, that our security intelligence services are very mindful of this risk and monitor each situation very carefully. There are also a number of steps that are being taken to mitigate those risks, but to be very clear, we know that the risk is real and we are acting to protect Canadians and Canadian interests from it.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you for that, Minister.

I think I only have about a minute left. I wanted to thank you for your opening statements with respect to the importance of ensuring the personal safety and security of Canadians of Chinese descent. We have seen, since the onset of the pandemic, a very significant increase in hate incidents targeting Canadians of Asian heritage, and specifically Chinese heritage. Minister, anything the government can continue to do to ensure their security is most appreciated.

We've unfortunately had some incidents unfold here in London, and I know that other communities have been affected too. As an MP from London, with a thriving Chinese community, one that has made an enormous contribution to our city, I hope the government continues to persist in efforts to ensure the security of Canadians of Chinese descent.

Thanks.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Thank you very much.

Hate and intolerance have no place in our society. I'm from Toronto. We have a very large and vibrant Chinese community there as well. I was recently speaking to one of our Chinese citizens, who said that she called her sister on the weekend and urged her not to go out, because she was fearful.

No Canadian should ever be fearful of hatred or intolerance in this country. We all need to stand up against it, call it out and be very careful in our own language as well—

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Thank you. I'm sorry to interrupt.

Thank you, Mr. Fragiskatos.

Mr. Bergeron now has the floor for two and a half minutes.

Mr. Bergeron, go ahead.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I will try to move things along.

I'd like to come back to the questions I initiated. I would still like to know, how can we be sure that potential dissidents wanting to leave the People's Republic of China will not be in danger because they go through this visa application centre?

Mr. Minister, I must admit that the answers you have given us have done little to reassure me. Perhaps you cannot disclose some information, which I can understand, and perhaps you could simply say that what is troubling is the fact that it's a Chinese company. I should like to remind you that under the Hong Kong national security law, all Chinese companies are required to help guarantee the People's Republic of China's national security.

For instance, Huawei is known to have shared African Union information when it was approached to work for that organization.

We also know that news came out recently of a data leak from Shenzhen Zhenhua Data Information Technology Co. There is cause for concern if we use a Chinese subcontractor to process the personal information of a certain number of people seeking to obtain a visa to come to Canada.

Please, Mr. Minister, can you reassure me?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Yes, sir, and let me provide you with two important assurances.

First of all, as I've said, information by our agencies is always handled according to Canada's privacy laws. No application or biometric collection is stored at that centre, and all databases containing personal information must be located in Canada.

I also want to provide you with the assurance that our officials closely monitor those processes to ensure that we are following our own rules and that Canada's stringent privacy standards are being met. This is carried out through inspections and audits to ensure that we are always in compliance with those rules. Those inspections and audits have been taking place. That is monitored by our officials to make sure that there has been no privacy breach of that sensitive data information in these systems.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Thank you.

Thank you very much, Mr. Bergeron.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

We now go to Mr. Harris.

Mr. Harris, you have two minutes and 30 seconds, please.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you.

Minister Blair, we have heard, as a committee, lots of evidence from individuals in Canada, mainly of Chinese descent, who have been subject to intimidation. They've tried to get some assistance, and they feel they're getting the runaround. They go to the local police, as you point out, and they are told they have to go to CSIS. They go to CSIS, and CSIS tells them to go to the local police or the RCMP, if they're the local police. There doesn't seem to be any sense that there is any single point of contact, which I think is what some of us talked about as being necessary.

In your letter to us in December, you talked about the RCMP's national security information network, with the 1-800 number. You talked about CSIS having a number or a web form application to report something, yet we were hearing constantly that people get the runaround back and forth. They don't get any satisfaction.

If these are national points of contact.... Even last week, there was the case of a Saudi national—a convention refugee who had been in Canada for over a year—who disappeared. One of his friends, who was quite worried about him, approached your department and was told to call the local police. The local police don't have any method of dealing with these kinds of incidents or circumstances.

How is it that this confusion reigns? Is there a national point of contact that ensures that these details are clear? Why is your department sending people to the local police?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

To be very clear, Mr. Harris, if someone calls and they believe they are at risk and they're threatened, the advice I would give to every Canadian is to call the local police of jurisdiction. If you have an immediate fear for your safety, call 911. We also recognize that some of those situations are not emergent and people just need information and guidance on where to take their concern and their complaint, so the RCMP has established a 1-800 number. As well, CSIS plays a very significant role in following up and investigating these matters.

I will also tell you, Mr. Harris, that in some of the circumstances you described, the information and intelligence and the investigations that are taking place are sensitive, so we're not always able, as I'm sure you could understand, to share—

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Thank you. I'm very sorry to interrupt. We're at the conclusion of Mr. Harris's time.

We move to Mr. Chong for five minutes.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm just going to put my timer on here so that I don't go over.

Thank you, Minister Blair, for appearing in front of our committee.

As the first Canadian of Chinese descent elected to the House of Commons from Ontario, I know first-hand what it's like to be subject to anti-Asian discrimination, and I know all members in the House and on this committee agree with all of us that anti-Asian discrimination is unacceptable.

I don't want to focus on that. Right now, I'd like to focus on the national security and intellectual property risks as well as human rights issues concerning Huawei. CSIS has indicated that China presents a threat to Canada in 5G. It has indicated in the past that it's a threat to our national security and a threat with respect to the theft of intellectual property. There's now a new dimension whereby Huawei is presenting a threat, and that is a threat to our fundamental beliefs in human rights and in the dignity of all people. It's increasingly clear that Huawei is participating in a genocide in Xinjiang province in China. The China cables published by the International Consortium of Investigative Journalists reveal that Huawei is deeply involved in rolling out technology in Xinjiang that is being used to suppress the Uighur people and perpetuate the genocide.

In addition, just two months ago, The Washington Post reported that Huawei is testing AI software that can instantly—within a millisecond—recognize Uighur minorities and alert police for their arrest. The Washington Post obtained an internal Huawei document that outlined how Huawei was working in 2018, just three years ago, with a facial recognition firm to test artificial intelligence camera systems that would instantaneously scan faces in a crowd and, using the leading cutting-edge AI out there, determine each person's sex and ethnicity. If the system detected the face of a Uighur Muslim minority, it would trigger a “Uighur alarm” and the AI system would determine whether to flag that individual for arrest by Chinese police authorities as part of their brutal crackdown. In addition, official documents last year in The New York Times revealed that in one city in China alone, that surveillance system had scanned Uighur faces half a million times in one month.

Just two months ago, as a result of these revelations, a Huawei executive, Tommy Zwicky, vice-president of communications for the company's Denmark office, abruptly resigned because of what Huawei is doing to help facilitate this genocide in Xinjiang province. He said he resigned because it became clear to him the company was failing to take seriously matters of public surveillance and human rights in Xinjiang.

My question is, are you aware of the role that Huawei is playing in this genocide in Xinjiang?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chong, for a very important question.

Let me be very clear at the outset: The allegations that you've just outlined in your question are unacceptable. They are abhorrent. They are clear human rights violations, and I join you in condemning them in the strongest possible terms. That is completely unacceptable. I am not personally aware of any evidence of the allegations you made, but certainly, my officials here....

I will tell you, though, that it can be very challenging in this forum to discuss any ongoing matter of intelligence or investigation, but with evidence—

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

I have only a minute left.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

I'll stop.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Minister, maybe I'll just ask one quick question. How can the Government of Canada partner, through the granting councils, with a $4.8-million grant to a company that is using people like the Uighur people as human guinea pigs? Why has the cabinet not issued a directive to the granting councils regarding Huawei to prevent them from partnering with a company with that kind of human rights record?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Thank you.

I'll try to respond. Listen, we're aware, certainly, of the attempts by foreign state actors, particularly from the PRC, to target cutting-edge Canadian research. We know that there have been a number of instances in which they have attempted to do that. We have taken some very strong steps to protect those institutions and organizations from such interference. With respect, where any organization, government or—

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Minister, I have to interrupt. I'm sorry about that. Mr. Chong's time is up.

We're now on to Ms. Zann for five minutes.

[Lenore Zann, Liberal, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Thank you very much

Thank you very much, Minister Blair, for your opening remarks.

I would like to ask you about economic threats to Canada. Recently, I noticed that Unifor's national president, Jerry Dias, made a statement about the Conservative leader saying, “I really love his tough on China talk. It's just such nonsense, because he was the guy that did the deal with China that really gave them the right to sue Canada.”

Minister, can you please provide us with some information about what our government is now doing under the Investment Canada Act to guard against investments that could undermine our national security?