Evidence of meeting #18 for Canada-China Relations in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was information.
A video is available from Parliament.
8:05 p.m.
Bloc
Stéphane Bergeron Bloc Montarville, QC
I am sorry for interrupting our witness, but his microphone is too high and the interpreters can't hear him.
8:05 p.m.
President, Canada Border Services Agency
I'm sorry about that.
Is that better?
8:05 p.m.
President, Canada Border Services Agency
Anything that's been mined, manufactured or produced wholly or in part by forced labour is prohibited from entering Canada, so obviously we would look into anything, where we have evidence to do so, to prevent its entry.
8:05 p.m.
Liberal
Lenore Zann Liberal Cumberland—Colchester, NS
Thank you.
What about agricultural goods? I heard something about cotton, for instance. Are you aware of any of those kinds of goods?
8:05 p.m.
President, Canada Border Services Agency
I'm not aware of that specifically. As I said, the program just started as of the signing of the new trade agreement last summer. I'd have to get back to you on that. If there's something specific on cotton, I'll send you a report.
8:05 p.m.
Liberal
Lenore Zann Liberal Cumberland—Colchester, NS
I would appreciate that. Thank you so much.
Director Vigneault and RCMP Commissioner Lucki, this question is for both of you.
We've heard about the challenges your agencies faced quite a while back, in the 2010s, about sharing information with one another, bringing intelligence and completing it into evidence. Time has elapsed since then. I'm just wondering if you could inform us as to how your organizations are working better now to share information on threats that are identified...in order to be held accountable as necessary.
8:05 p.m.
Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
Do you want to go first, Commissioner?
8:05 p.m.
Commr Brenda Lucki
I could start, and then I'll pass it over to you because you are very good at this.
We have a working group and we did a complete operational review on intel to evidence between our two agencies. We hired outsiders. There are several recommendations that included different things we can do so that we can use that type of intel for evidence.
I will pass it over to David to go into the specifics of that.
8:05 p.m.
Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
Thank you, Commissioner Lucki.
It is a very complex issue. We have the rule of law in Canada. We have the right of the people who are accused to have the information known to them. But when we have intelligence and are using very sensitive sources, we also have a need to protect this information. If not, we will not be able to continue to do intelligence operations in the future ourselves or to receive information from our partners.
It is a very complex issue. I would not want to leave the committee with the impression that everything has been resolved.
But under Commissioner Lucki's leadership, we have done a lot of work to push the envelope. The working group that she talked about on the operational improvement review has generated very specific ideas. We have the expertise of a former deputy minister of justice to oversee the work, and one of the leading defence attorneys with the proper clearance to review our processes and challenge both the RCMP and CSIS to go into all of the aspects, including cultural aspects, that will impede the information exchange.
I have to say this is still a work in progress. Unfortunately, more work remains to be done.
8:10 p.m.
Liberal
8:10 p.m.
Bloc
Stéphane Bergeron Bloc Montarville, QC
Let me recap.
If I understand correctly, Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada, through Public Services and Procurement Canada, negotiated a contract with VFS Global, without involving the intelligence and security agencies to guarantee the security of the information that will be gathered on the ground in Beijing. In addition, VFS Global entered into a subcontract with the Beijing Shuangxiong Foreign Service Company.
First, what guarantee do we have that VFS Global looks at the rules on communicating information as rigorously as Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada and Public Services and Procurement Canada? Second, Mr. Stewart, are you aware that VFS Global is financed through a Chinese investment fund?
My impression is that the Chinese now have the process of issuing Canadian visas “all wrapped up with a bow on top”, as they say.
Does that concern you?
8:10 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Public Safety Canada
At this stage, I think it would be better to provide you with the answer in writing, through the Department of Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship.
The answer would probably be more detailed and would contain all the information that you are asking for, because I took no part in the process of awarding the contracts that we are talking about here.
8:10 p.m.
Bloc
Stéphane Bergeron Bloc Montarville, QC
Nevertheless, should it all not concern you in terms of national security?
8:10 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Public Safety Canada
The issue of the security of Canadians' information is very important in general. As the minister said, processes are in place to ensure the security—
8:10 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Geoff Regan
I am sorry to interrupt you, but Mr. Bergeron's time is up.
We'll go on now to Mr. Harris, for two minutes and 30 seconds.
Mr. Harris, go ahead, please.
8:10 p.m.
NDP
Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL
Thank you, Chair.
I'd like to follow up on academic interference and the potential for that. Is your activity with the universities and the research divisions of the universities advisory in nature? Is that simply what you do? Have you actually done any investigations or follow-up? Have there ever been any charges laid or individuals held to account for a failure to follow the expected protocols or rules, or is it simply that you are advising and you are warning? Can you tell us a bit more about that?
8:10 p.m.
Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
Mr. Harris, from a CSIS point of view we do two things. In the specific case of academics, we provide advice. We engage with them and provide them with information about the threats they face and about the modus operandi and some of the techniques that can be used to get this information. We have limitations in our ability to provide classified information, however, so we try to find a way that is as explicit as possible.
The other method we use is our national security investigations—our intelligence investigations—and we investigate any aspect of espionage or foreign interference that may be demanded of CSIS. At that point, we would either be using threat reduction measures to mitigate the threat or, if the information reaches a level that warrants it, sharing the information with law enforcement and the RCMP to look at a potential criminal investigation.
It is, if you will, an ecosystem that is quite important to manage. We are careful about how we engage on campuses and in universities. We need to manage academic freedom, but at the same time we have a unique mandate, a unique aperture on the threat, to provide this information to academics. To be very candid with you, though, I would suggest that more remains to be done and better engagement is required.
8:15 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Geoff Regan
Thank you very much, Mr. Harris.
Mr. Williamson, do you have a point of order? I see you have used the “raise hand” function.
8:15 p.m.
Conservative
John Williamson Conservative New Brunswick Southwest, NB
I have a question for Ms. Bruce. Could she respond to my question in writing? I'm looking for her agency's response to the Huawei question, a follow-up. That was it.