Canada-China Relations Committee on April 12th, 2021

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Thank you for coming, Minister Sajjan.

I'll go back to our topic for this evening.

Minister, COVID has brought many obstacles. I was wondering if you could tell us more about how we've managed to sustain our engagement in the Indo-Pacific region.

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

I'm glad we're going back to the topic at hand.

Canada is a Pacific nation. When I became Minister of National Defence, it was very clear that we did not have a significant presence in the Pacific. In fact, it was quite consistent that we didn't have a regular presence at the Shangri-La Dialogue. We committed to not only increasing our presence with the military, but being there reliably on exercises, working very closely with our partners.

A perfect example I can give is what we call Operation Neon, the section's monitoring against North Korea. In Vancouver a conversation was convened by foreign ministers, led then by our then foreign minister, Chrystia Freeland, with other foreign ministers, the secretary of state and me. The secretary of defence from the U.S. also attended and provided the military outlook. Through this we were able, with all the foreign ministers, to look at the military challenges and emphasize the importance of diplomacy. To do this, we needed to have credible military presence in the region against North Korea. That's exactly what we did.

Through the convening of that conversation, we were able to have a greater presence in the region and we have consistently provided both aerial and ship support for monitoring these sanctions. This gives greater confidence to the members of the nations there that Canada will be there. That's exactly what we have done. We need to continue this. We have significant security concerns in the region, but if we also want to have a voice we need to be there. That's exactly what we're doing now.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

In your opening statement, you said you were looking to expand your navy ties, which you've just mentioned, and that would include military education with other countries. Can you tell us more about that?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

In terms of relationships, we have a military training co-operation program in the region. We've been in to enhance that, so their members can train with us at our school here in Canada. Obviously, this has been impacted by COVID, and we look forward to resuming a lot of that. We also do capacity-building work.

Now we want to look at opportunities and how we can increase the relationship to start working on co-operation on humanitarian and disaster response. We know how much that impacts the region and how we can provide greater support when we work together.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

What has DND's involvement been in protecting Canadians against cybersecurity interference, like Operation Fox Hunt to suppress dissent among the Chinese-Canadian community?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

One thing I can say with absolute confidence is that our folks at CSE work very closely with our allies in protecting Canadians and our allies [Technical difficulty—Editor] against intrusion. A lot of great work happens behind the scenes that we can't talk about with Canadians, for good reason.

I've already talked about the authorities with the CSE act, but it is important to mention that the authority we finally have allows us those capabilities, which require the appropriate investments we are currently making. For example, the creation of the cyber centre allows us not only to have a tremendous capability to protect Canadians but also to start building a culture of resilience inside Canada, so we can make sure that everybody is cyber-safe.

As little as this may sound, it has a significant impact. You can work with small businesses and even individuals to make sure they're cyber-safe. Everybody's walking around with their phones, even kids these days. It's extremely important to educate them on how to change their password regularly and make other choices to make sure they stay safe.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Thank you, Ms. Yip, and thank you, Minister.

That concludes our first session. I understand some of the folks with you are staying for the next panel. We need to suspend for two minutes so we can add two additional witnesses.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

I call the meeting back to order.

I now welcome two additional witnesses. From the Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development, we have Daniel Costello, assistant deputy minister, international security; and Weldon Epp, director general, North Asia and Oceania bureau. Thank you very much for joining us.

We'll now continue with questions from committee members. We'll go first to Mr. Bezan for six minutes.

Mr. Bezan, please.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Today I'm going to concentrate my questions for Jody Thomas, the deputy minister of national defence.

Ms. Thomas, when the Department of National Defence cancelled the winter warfare training exercise with the People's Liberation Army, we read about some push-back that DND received from officials over at Foreign Affairs.

Can you describe what that push-back was?

[Jody Thomas, Deputy Minister, Department of National Defence]

As was shown in the inadvertent release of the email, there was some concern about breaking existing agreements, and there was concern about commitments that had been publicly made. Five Eyes chiefs of defence had decided that this kind of winter warfare training—and it was winter survival training rather than warfare training—was probably not the best use of our allied time, and we thought it was possibly a risk to continue with that training. Therefore, it was a difference of opinion amongst professionals that was resolved with the cancellation of the training.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Ms. Thomas, we know from those ATIPed documents that our Five Eyes partners, particularly the Australians and the Americans, warned the department that sensitive military doctrine risked being transferred to the communist Chinese troops if we went ahead with the winter warfare exercise.

Can you please explain what type of sensitive transfer of military doctrine was at risk, and why that would be considered so dangerous?

[Jody Thomas]

I could ask Major-General Cadieu to expand upon the exact training in that it was a military training program. I think any transfer of knowledge that allows another country that is not an ally and not necessarily of the same view that we have of the world to expand its body of knowledge is always a risk. Whether it is how to operate a vessel, how to operate and survive in the winter, or any number of activities that are undertaken by a military, it was determined that the best approach was to not proceed with the training.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

I'll quote what you just said a month ago, on March 10. It was regarding China's interest [Technical difficulty—Editor]:

China has a voracious appetite and will stop at nothing to feed itself, and the Arctic is one of the last domains and regions left, and we have to understand it and exploit it—and more quickly than they can exploit it.

Given the reality of China's ambitions in the Arctic and knowing how your mindset is now, what changed since having them here in 2018 in winter warfare and winter survival training alongside members of the Canadian Armed Forces?

[Jody Thomas]

The training that was conducted and planned to be conducted in 2018 was very low-level training. Regarding the difference between the strategic view of China and the Arctic and what Canada needs to do to protect our interests and our sovereignty in the Arctic, I would say they are two completely different issues. One is about a very tactical level of training, and the other is about our sovereignty and a strategic-level view of Canada, our waters, our maritime domain approaches and the Arctic as an entire region.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Has a decision been taken now to halt these exercises indefinitely, or was the decision made to permanently ensure that we not go forward with any more training with Chinese troops?

[Jody Thomas]

My understanding is there will not be this kind of training.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

After the documents were released under access to information, what message did your department receive from Chinese officials in Beijing?

[Jody Thomas]

I don't know of any message to the Department of National Defence at that time.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Were there any to the Canadian Armed Forces?

[Jody Thomas]

There were none that I am aware of.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

There was no pressure from the Chinese Communist regime in Beijing to continue on with the training at some future date.

[Jody Thomas]

No, sir, there was not.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

It seems that we have two departments here working at cross-purposes. On the one hand, the Liberal government signed an agreement to work more closely with China's military, including more military exercises on our soil. That was backed strongly by members of the foreign affairs department. On the other hand, we have military leaders putting the brakes on this idea for national security reasons, especially from our Five Eyes partners, and having to fend off push-back from Foreign Affairs.

What is National Defence doing to ensure that our national security is not compromised by the Communist regime in Beijing while the Liberal government is complicit in enabling it and trying to appease the dictators in Beijing?

[Jody Thomas]

The Canadian Armed Forces is executing the policy “Strong, Secure, Engaged”. Our presence in the Indo-Pacific is a persistent presence. We are very active members on operations like Operation Neon, which is the sanctions enforcement. We are aggressively pursuing a range of activity options and investments for NORAD modernization and continental defence.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

How am I doing for time, Mr. Chair?