Evidence of meeting #22 for Canada-China Relations in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was chair.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Trevor Cadieu  Director of Staff, Strategic Joint Staff, Department of National Defence
Shelly Bruce  Chief, Communications Security Establishment
Jody Thomas  Deputy Minister, Department of National Defence
Daniel Costello  Assistant Deputy Minister, International Security, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Weldon Epp  Director General, North Asia and Oceania Bureau, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Scott Jones  Head, Canadian Centre for Cyber Security, Communications Security Establishment
Scott Bishop  Commander of the Canadian Forces Intelligence Command and Chief of Defence Intelligence, Department of National Defence
Clerk of the Committee  Ms. Marie-France Lafleur

6:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Geoff Regan

I call this meeting to order. Welcome to meeting number 22 of the Special Committee on Canada-China Relations. Pursuant to the order of reference of Wednesday, September 23, 2020, the committee is meeting on its study of Canada-China relations.

This meeting is in hybrid format, pursuant to the motion adopted by the House on January 25, 2021.

I would like to welcome the Honourable Harjit Sajjan, Minister of National Defence.

Thank you for being here.

We also have, from the Department of National Defence, Jody Thomas, deputy minister; Rear-Admiral Scott Bishop, commander of the Canadian Forces Intelligence Command and chief of defence intelligence; and Major-General Cadieu, director of staff, strategic joint staff.

Finally, from the Communications Security Establishment, we have Shelly Bruce, chief; as well as Scott Jones, head of the Canadian Centre for Cyber Security.

Thank you, everyone, for being here this evening.

Mr. Sajjan, the floor is yours for your opening remarks. You have five minutes. Please proceed.

6:35 p.m.

Vancouver South B.C.

Liberal

Harjit S. Sajjan LiberalMinister of National Defence

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Committee members, good afternoon.

I'm joined here by my officials from both National Defence and from the Communications Security Establishment.

Thank you for inviting me to share some thoughts on Canada-China relations from a National Defence perspective. This is actually my first time appearing before your committee, and I’m grateful for this opportunity.

I want to thank you for the important work you are doing to help Canadians better understand our relationship with China.

First, let me say that Global Affairs Canada is the lead on Canada's bilateral relationship with China.

While our interactions and activities at National Defence have always been in line with foreign policy, we’re more of what I would call a “key partner” in Canada’s whole-of-government approach. Global Affairs drives our relationship with China. Public Safety is our domestic security lead. The Communications Security Establishment oversees our cyber-defence. National Defence is responsible for the regional security and engagement piece, among other key functions.

Canada recognizes China’s importance in world affairs, especially in regional and international security. We share deep ties economically, culturally and especially people-to-people. Many Canadians have Chinese roots, and many Canadians frequently travelled to mainland China before the pandemic to visit family and friends.

Despite these ties, our bilateral relationship is complex and presents challenges. In our defence policy—Strong, Secure, Engaged—we committed to being a reliable partner in the Asia-Pacific region through strong partnerships and consistent engagements.

The world is changing rapidly, as is China’s geopolitical role. That is why we are constantly assessing our approach to China. Any behaviours and activities that run counter to Canadian values and interests—and those of our allies and partners—require us to look at the relationship with eyes wide open. We are doing that.

Mr. Chair, here and around the world, we are adamant about supporting the rules-based international order. We will always work to uphold it and the stability it brings.

We believe that all countries benefit when we observe the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea. We will always stand up for freedom of navigation and overflight, while respecting the rights and jurisdiction of coastal states. We know that freedom of navigation is vital, and 90% of the world’s trade travels by sea. That’s why Canada opposes land reclamation projects and building outposts in disputed areas for military purposes. We support lawful commerce, freedom of navigation and freedom of overflight in accordance with international law.

We will continue supporting our allies and partners in the Asia-Pacific region, especially in the face of unilateral actions that undermine peace and stability. One way we signal this support is by maintaining an active naval presence in the region.

At the moment, HMCS Calgary is deployed in the Indo-Pacific region with a Cyclone helicopter on board to carry out Canada’s forward presence activities under Operation Projection. Shortly, the ship will be chopped into Operation Artemis, which is the Canadian Armed Forces’ mission to fight terrorism and to make the Middle Eastern waters more secure.

Under Operation Neon, we are also contributing to multinational efforts to implement the United Nations Security Council sanctions against North Korea, sanctions that China has also agreed to uphold.

Along with these naval activities, Canada has been a proud dialogue partner with ASEAN for four decades. ASEAN is the key group of nations in Southeast Asia working to uphold the rules-based order.

Canada is also seeking to deepen its level of engagement with ASEAN by pursuing member status on two expert working groups of its Defence Ministers' Meeting Plus on maritime security and humanitarian and disaster relief.

As said during a December ADMM-Plus meeting, Canada is looking to expand its navy, air force, army and special forces ties with ASEAN countries through high-level bilateral engagements, staff talks and participation in military exercises. We will keep prioritizing exchanges with ASEAN members in military education, including through our military training and co-operation program.

Mr. Chair and members of the committee, Canada’s relationship with an evolving China is a complex and challenging one. In all of our dealings with China, we will continue to be guided by our values, to defend human rights and to protect our interests at home and abroad. We will always work with like-minded countries to uphold the rules-based international order that brings stability and security to the Asia-Pacific region and beyond.

I want to thank the committee for its time today, and I would be glad to respond to any questions.

Thank you very much.

6:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Geoff Regan

Thank you very much, Minister.

We'll now go to our first round of questions.

Mr. Bezan, welcome to the committee. You have six minutes.

6:40 p.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, as we know, in the last couple of days there's been some reporting that the Trudeau government threatened to pull funding from the Halifax International Security Forum if it gave the John McCain award to the President of Taiwan, Tsai Ing-wen.

Do you support that decision, and why aren't you supporting President Tsai Ing-wen for this award?

6:40 p.m.

Liberal

Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC

Mr. Chair, first of all, that's absolutely false. The Halifax International Security Forum is an independent organization. It makes its own choices with regard to the awards.

6:40 p.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

Are you supporting [Technical difficulty—Editor] receiving this award?

6:40 p.m.

Liberal

Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC

Mr. Chair, as I stated, when it comes to this award, they're an independent organization and they decide where—

6:40 p.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

Did you personally support it, Minister?

6:40 p.m.

Liberal

Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC

Mr. Chair, when it comes to our relationship with China, I'm happy to take many questions. You asked me a question regarding the Halifax International Security Forum and how they make decisions. They are an independent organization and accordingly they make a decision by themselves—

6:40 p.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

But did you threaten to withhold funding from the Halifax International Security Forum, which receives funding from the Department of National Defence, if it awarded the McCain award to the President of Taiwan?

6:40 p.m.

Liberal

Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC

Mr. Chair, no. In fact, I authorized funding for the Halifax International Security Forum twice last year: once, I believe, sometime in early September, and once in November.

6:40 p.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

Will that go forward, then? Will the Halifax International Security Forum provide this award to President Tsai Ing-wen of Taiwan?

6:40 p.m.

Liberal

Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC

Mr. Chairman, I'm not understanding the question the member is asking.

6:40 p.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

All the reporting is that the Government of Canada, the Liberal government, is going to withhold this funding if this award is presented to President Tsai Ing-wen.

6:40 p.m.

Liberal

Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC

Mr. Chair, when it comes to the Halifax International Security Forum, we have supported this forum since we came into government. It was actually in place before that. As I stated, it is not our decision to award this; it is the decision of the forum itself, and the organization, to make that decision on its own.

6:40 p.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

Okay. We'll probably return to that, Mr. Chair.

I want to get on with questions about the Chinese troops that were training in Canada back in February 2018. Troops from the People's Liberation Army took part and went to warfare training exercises at CFB Petawawa. How many Chinese troops were present for that exercise?

6:40 p.m.

Liberal

Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC

Mr. Chair, I want to make it very clear that when it comes to our relationships with China and how that military relationship works, we work very closely with our allies on how relationships are done. In fact, the only formal relationship we had with the Chinese military was an agreement that was signed by Rob Nicholson, who was the minister at that time. Since then, because the situation has changed, as allies we have made assessments.... Actually, beforehand their participation in RIMPAC was not allowed, and then once—

6:40 p.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

Mr. Chair, if I could—

6:40 p.m.

Liberal

Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC

If you'll allow me to answer the question, I'll get—

6:40 p.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

I'd just like to get to the questions here. The reality, Minister, is that no Chinese troops were ever trained in Canada when the Conservatives were in government. This was a new addition to the agreement that was made by the Trudeau government.

Again, how many troops were present during that exercise in February 2018? That's the question. Can you please answer that?

6:40 p.m.

Liberal

Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC

I'm trying to, Mr. Chair, if the member would allow me to answer the question.

After our two Michaels were arrested, very clear direction was given that we were not to continue with any type of military involvement, even though Minister Nicholson had signed that. I can provide greater detail of any involvement and future involvement through Major-General Cadieu, if you like.

6:40 p.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

How many troops were from the PLA, and what were their ranks ?

6:45 p.m.

Liberal

Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC

General Cadieu, can you answer that question?

6:45 p.m.

Major-General Trevor Cadieu Director of Staff, Strategic Joint Staff, Department of National Defence

Mr. Chair, for the exercise Mr. Bezan is referring to in February 2018, five members of the PLA were present as observers. They ranged in rank. The lowest rank was a sergeant and I think the highest was a major general.

6:45 p.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

Thank you.

Mr. Chair, we know from documents accidentally released by Global Affairs Canada that the decision by the CDS to cancel the winter training exercise with the Chinese troops happened only after our Five Eyes partners warned us that there could be a dangerous sharing of military information and sensitive doctrine if it went ahead a second time in 2019.

Minister, were you prepared to go ahead with this exercise up to that point, because Global Affairs Canada and the Minister of Foreign Affairs told you to, or did you allow the military itself to actually make the decision to cancel it?