Canada-China Relations Committee on June 7th, 2021

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Minister, welcome to the committee. Thank you for coming to answer our questions today.

Ms. Morgan, would you like to finish answering the question that Mr. Chong asked?

[Marta Morgan, Deputy Minister, Foreign Affairs, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development]

Yes. Thank you very much.

I would just like to say that Global Affairs Canada recognizes that Canada can be the target of foreign interference activities, including by the People's Republic of China. We have a number of methods that we can use to address this, starting with raising these issues directly with the ambassador or with the consuls general here in Canada. We work very closely with our security partners whenever we have issues that need to be addressed like that.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Thank you.

Minister, it's been almost a year since the Standing Committee of the National People's Congress of China passed the national security law for Hong Kong. This legislation was enacted in a secretive process, without the participation of Hong Kong's legislature, judiciary or people, and in violation of international obligations.

Can you outline what Canada has said publicly and what concrete actions Canada has taken so far since the passage of this law?

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Westmount, QC]

Thank you very much for the question.

We of course have been very preoccupied with the national security law being imposed in Hong Kong. Alongside our international partners, we've consistently voiced concern about Beijing's imposition of this law, as well as about other assaults on Hong Kong's high degree of freedoms under the Sino-British Joint Declaration. This decision further narrows Hong Kong's autonomy and the space for freedom of expression and public participation in Hong Kong's governance, and we have made this very, very clear.

Of course, we have also taken some steps with respect to, for example, the extradition treaty that we have with China and with Hong Kong. We have modified our travel advisories. The Minister of Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship has also made it an easier process for those who may wish to leave Hong Kong to come to Canada.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Many legislators and peaceful protesters have been arrested. How can Canada help? Many advocates have said that we are not going far enough. What can be done?

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Westmount, QC]

Canada has vigorously spoken up with respect to the fact that there has been this process of having fewer and fewer citizens of Hong Kong eligible to become legislators. It is now down to less than a quarter, and of course they all must demonstrate that they are “patriotic to China”.

We've made it very clear in our communications with the Chinese government that these incursions on democracy, moving away from the one-country, two-systems rule and the basic law, are retrograde steps that are not acceptable and are having a major impact not only on the people of Hong Kong but on our relations with China with respect to human rights.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Can you reiterate Canada's commitment to the promotion and protection of freedom of expression around the world?

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Westmount, QC]

Canada feels extremely strongly about freedom of expression. It is part of the basic values that are enshrined in our Charter of Rights. We will always speak up with respect to human rights.

As we know, in the case of China, there are numerous examples, whether we're talking about the Uighurs, about Tibetans, or about Hong Kong citizens, not to mention the detention that has been imposed on tow of our citizens, who were arbitrarily detained. These violations of human rights are issues that we bring up on a regular basis with the Chinese government.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Thank you for your update on Michael Spavor and Michael Kovrig.

It was reported this morning in the news that Ambassador Barton had some discussions with the U.S. administration while he was in Canada. What can you tell us about this discussion pertaining to Madam Meng and the situation of Michael Spavor and Michael Kovrig?

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Westmount, QC]

Yes, Ambassador Barton did go to the United States. It was planned, because he's very knowledgeable about the situation with respect to Madam Meng Wanzhou as well as the situation in which the two Michaels find themselves. He is in regular contact with Huawei, both in China and in Canada, and also in the United States, because of the presence of legal representatives of Huawei in the U.S. He is uniquely suited, along with Ambassador Kirsten Hillman, who is our ambassador to the United States, to work on this particular file.

I can't go into details, but I can tell you that both are very actively working on the file with respect to the two Michaels.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

I only have a short time.

We all know that the China of 2021 isn't the same as the China of 2016. Canada's approach needs to evolve with an evolving China. What would Canada's approach be with China?

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Westmount, QC]

You've said it very well. It's an evolving approach to China, because China has changed quite dramatically. I always use the example of the four C's. We have to coexist with them—

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Minister, I'm sorry. We'll have to wait for the other three C's, because Ms. Yip is out of time.

Mr. Bergeron, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for being with us today, Minister. We are pleased to have the opportunity to talk with you on Monday evening every week.

How did you react on April 22 when your colleague, New Zealand Foreign Minister Nanaia Mahuta, said it was not necessary on every issue to invoke Five Eyes to create a coalition of support around particular issues in the field of human rights?

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Westmount, QC]

I have no comments to make concerning what she said and what you have reported. I will simply tell you that our relationship with New Zealand is very close. It is a member country of the Five Eyes alliance, obviously, and they are also colleagues in our trading relationships under the Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership or CPTPP. I have regular conversations with the New Zealand Foreign Minister.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

I certainly understand that, Minister. You have said things that are obvious on which we are all in agreement. However, the question that concerns me—I do not know whether it concerns you as well—relates to the alliances we are trying to create to stand up to the superpower that the People's Republic of China has become, particularly in respect of arbitrary detentions.

The New Zealand minister said that it is not necessary on every issue to invoke Five Eyes to create a coalition of support around particular issues in the field of human rights.

Does that not throw cold water on the nations that are trying precisely to create coalitions to ensure respect for human rights, particularly when it comes to foreign nationals in the People's Republic of China?

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Westmount, QC]

I would say no, for two reasons.

First, it is very obvious that New Zealand is our ally when it comes to human rights. It has made that very clear by supporting the declaration on arbitrary detention.

The other reason is that we are involved in a number of multilateral forums, of which the G7 is one, that very strongly raised the question of human rights in China at the recent foreign ministers' meeting. We spoke with one voice. It is therefore not just the Five Eyes. It may be the G7 or other multilateral forums in which various countries speak out on China and human rights.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

What I understand from your reply, Minister, is that regardless of the fact that the minister says it is not necessary to create coalitions around human rights, or, at least, to use the Five Eyes to do it, you are not at all concerned by this.

I note that in recent years, the number of applications for export permits that were denied has gone from ten per year in 2019 to 58 per year in 2020. We might perhaps have hoped that the export permit granted to Turkey for equipment we sold it would appear sooner on that list of permits that were denied. What we mainly see is that among the 58 export permits denied in 2020, for applications to export dual-use items, some relate to products to be shipped to the People's Republic of China.

How do you explain this over-representation of the People's Republic of China in the list of permits denied for applications to export dual-use items?

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Westmount, QC]

Thank you for the question.

Approving an export permit is an extremely important decision that must be made with great care and according to very specific criteria.

I have said on a number of occasions that I will not hesitate to block export permits if we believe, for one reason or another, that it is not possible to take the risk of the equipment being assigned to a use that is not in compliance with the terms of the export permit. In the recent case involving Turkey, in fact, you have noted my decision to block and cancel 29 permits to which you alluded.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

That is very laudable, Minister.

Last Monday night, however, we discussed the issue of the Pratt & Whitney Canada aircraft engines that are awaiting a permit for export to the People's Republic of China.

In light of your previous answer, am I to understand that the reason why this export permit has not been granted for several years, thus jeopardizing the jobs at the Longueuil plant, in particular, is because you have reservations or fears about the potential use of those aircraft engines by the government of the People's Republic of China?

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Westmount, QC]

There are several reasons why we take great care in deciding whether an export permit can be granted.

I cannot give you all the details, since these are not matters that we discuss publicly. However, if an export permit has not yet been granted, it is because we are examining it carefully before making a decision. It may be approved in some cases and blocked in other cases.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Is that true, even after two years?

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Westmount, QC]

I know a bit about Pratt & Whitney engines and I have to say that it is a very complex technology that has to be examined carefully.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Thank you very much, Mr. Bergeron.

We'll now go to Mr. Harris, for six minutes.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you, Chair. Thank you for joining us tonight, Minister Garneau. We're happy to have you here.

This committee presented a report to the House of Commons on February 25, 2021, recommending that the Government of Canada convey to the ambassador of the People's Republic of China to Canada that any interference with the rights and freedoms of people in Canada was unacceptable, will not be tolerated, and will result in serious consequences for those responsible.

Was that message communicated to the ambassador of the People's Republic of China to Canada, and if so, what was the response of the ambassador?