Canada-China Relations Committee on June 14th, 2021

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you, Chair.

I just have one follow-up question concerning the legislation.

Minister, you have made a great deal of hay about the fact that the documentation was sent to the national security committee of Parliament. There's an exception to the committee's entitlement to have access to information. It's found in section 14 of the act.

One of the items here is “information relating directly to an ongoing investigation carried out by a law enforcement agency that may lead to a prosecution”.

We know that this information or this activity relates to individuals where there were concerns about security information being released to the Wuhan lab. We know there's an investigation going on, so clearly the committee that's supposedly looking at all these documents isn't entitled to access to them.

How can it be that this is an appropriate body to provide information to, with the expectation that somehow or other that all of this is going to be reviewed, looked after and determinations made that this committee is interested in pursuing, if they are not entitled to access those documents?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

As I have said, through the chair, the committee has received unredacted documents. They are there with the committee should they choose to study them.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

You're saying that's regardless of the fact that they are not entitled to have access to those documents. There's something wrong somewhere, Minister. There seems to be a bit of sleight of hand going on. You say they have the documents, but the act says they are not entitled to them. You're basically saying that this is something that solves the problem.

How can that be?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

As I have said repeatedly, the committee has the full, unredacted documents.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

They have no instructions as to what to do with them.

Let me move back to the question of information sharing and collaboration. When did you first become aware, Minister, that the Winnipeg laboratory researchers were conducting research on infectious diseases with the Chinese military researchers?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I think I had a sort of peripheral awareness, even prior to being Minister of Health, that the National Microbiology Lab has collaborated with a number of researchers from around the world, leading to some pretty important discoveries.

I understood that part of the role of the National Microbiology Lab was to collaborate.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

I think you're being purposely vague and general, Minister, if I may say so. You haven't referred to the fact that.... Were you made aware or when did you become aware that there was direct collaboration with Chinese military researchers on infectious diseases?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Again, my understanding from the beginning of my appointment and prior to it was that the National Microbiology Lab collaborates with a number of researchers from around the world in pursuit of answers—

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Yes, but you're getting to be a bit of a broken record, Minister. I don't mean to insult you—

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

—to very challenging infectious disease problems.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Order. Let's have one at a time, please.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

I don't mean to insult you, Minister, but this is getting to be a bit of a broken record. I asked you about when you became aware that the lab was collaborating with military researchers in China.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

MP Harris, there's a lot of conjecture in that question. Again, I will just reiterate that I fully understand—

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

So, you're not aware. Are you aware that they have?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Again, MP Harris, your question—

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

No, there's no conjecture in that.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

—poses a conclusion. In fact, what I'm saying is that the lab has an ongoing relationship with researchers around the world to answer questions of infectious disease that affect Canadians and, indeed, global citizens. Clearly, it plays an important role in COVID-19, but it also did before that in coming up with solutions to many threats to Canadian and global health.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Let me get this straight: You're not even prepared to admit that you are aware that the research lab in Winnipeg collaborates with Chinese military scientists. That seems to be a pretty straightforward question. I don't know how you can avoid answering that.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I can, yet again, reiterate that the National Microbiology Lab collaborates with a number of researchers from around the world, all with the goal of ensuring that we have the best possible knowledge and contributions to the science that help protect global and Canadian health.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Maybe I can help you out if you want to answer a yes-or-no question. Are you aware of whether any of that number are Chinese military researchers?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Again, Mr. Harris, as I said, the lab has a very important role in protecting Canadians' health by producing research and collaborating on research that unlocks the mystery of infectious disease, treatments for that infectious disease, how to prevent the spread and how to better understand these viruses that pose such a threat to all of our health.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Minister, you seem to be offering us all an object lesson in stonewalling. Is there special training for that?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I assume that question is sarcasm, and I will just say that I am answering to the best of my ability and have fully provided unredacted documents to the appropriate committee.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

Again, I would ask the chair to remind the committee of decorum. There is very much in the Standing Orders the expectation that respect will be accorded to any witness, whether they're a minister of the Crown or not. Earlier in the questioning, there was an accusation of deliberately avoiding saying something, and I think, actually, that that's not parliamentary. I would just ask that all the members be reminded by the chair about decorum being very important in committee and about respect being accorded.

We will remember the same thing in the House of Commons. People may not like the answer, but the answer belongs to the person answering the question. It doesn't belong to the person asking the question.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Thank you, Mr. Oliphant.

Mr. Harris, on the same point of order....