Canada-China Relations Committee on June 14th, 2021

[Dr. Guillaume Poliquin]

All employees and visitors, or visiting officials, are required to undergo a security screening process. The security requirements, or the clearance required, will depend on the nature of the work to be undertaken. This will be assessed on an as-needed basis. All individuals, having access to the lab, will undergo a security clearance.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

This is not a straightforward and simple process. It does require checks. It does require that sort of background work that is necessary to be done.

Would you say that's a fair statement?

[Dr. Guillaume Poliquin]

It's core to our business. We take security very seriously and ensure that appropriate screening is followed.

As directives on security evolve, our policies are aligned, and updated to ensure that we are in compliance with both directives and specific legislation as they pertain to the security of biological materials, including the Human Pathogens and Toxins Act.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

What's the process for taking on new researchers at the lab when there's a need for new researchers to be employed? What is the search like? How is that carried out? What could you share with us on that point?

[Dr. Guillaume Poliquin]

Scientists who will become part of the NML complement, as employees, undergo a very rigorous security screening process. Depending on their particular line of work, they will require not only a security clearance protocol but also very in-depth training that is appropriate to their level of work.

In addition, scientists are sometimes called to work with other institutions or in collaboration, at which point a number of different mechanisms are in place, including the development of collaborative research agreements, or other forms of collaborative research frameworks that are appropriate for the work at hand.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

In terms of collaboration, let me ask you further about that. Where there is a need for collaboration, is it initiated by the researchers themselves, or is it part of a dialogue between you and researchers on the partnerships that could exist with fellow researchers internationally?

How does that come to be?

[Dr. Guillaume Poliquin]

Mr. Chair, when we are engaging on collaborative research projects, it will depend on the nature of the work and the goal to be achieved. I would like to emphasize the fact that collaboration, both domestically and internationally, is core to our ability to be a leading institution in response to public health. We are dependent on our partners to be able to do our work to the best of their ability. We take great pride in our ability to be a domestic and international resource and pride in those collaborations.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you very much.

I only have few seconds left, but I want to thank you for the work that's done. We're very fortunate as a country to have the lab in place in Winnipeg, and it was great to hear that COVID‑19 work specifically is being carried out there.

I'll stop there. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Thank you, Mr. Fragiskatos.

I will now give Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe the floor for six minutes.

Welcome to the committee, Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I also thank all of my colleagues who are here, as well as the Minister.

Minister, you said on the CTV program Question Period that if China had concealed information from the world concerning its management of the COVID‑19 pandemic, it should be held to account. I think that all of us sitting in committee today agree with that statement.

Do you believe that the Public Health Agency of Canada and your government should also be held to account if you conceal information, including by sending redacted documents to a committee that reports to the Prime Minister? There seems to be a double standard.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Listen, that is why in fact we have sent unredacted documents to NSICOP, that committee, because in fact our government does believe in transparency, but in a way that does not put the safety and security of Canadians at risk in any way. This is private information, secure information; it includes information about individuals. That information is best reviewed by a committee that has the appropriate clearance and security mechanisms in place to do so carefully and in appropriate ways that protect that information.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Your 2019 mandate letter says:

You will also meaningfully engage with the Government Caucus and Opposition Members of Parliament, the increasingly non-partisan Senate, and Parliamentary Committees.

In the case that brings us here today, it seems clear that you are refusing to collaborate with the opposition and with parliamentary committees. You are sending unredacted documents to the committee that reports to the Prime Minister.

Am I wrong in saying that you are not complying exactly with what your mandate letter asks of you?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I'll just point out that I'm here for three hours. It's likely my 26th appearance before a parliamentary committee. I've appeared at a number of Senate committees as well on a number of other issues. I continue to make myself available to committees to be accountable for the decisions of the government and for the operations of the various roles and responsibilities that I have, and I will continue to do that. But as I have stated, there is an appropriate place for documents of this nature, and those documents have been submitted in a way that can actually protect their privacy, yet have the scrutiny of parliamentarians from all parties.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Yes. So your opinion is that the Special Committee on Canada-China Relations is not the one that should examine these unredacted documents.

You are now telling us officially that the Special Committee on Canada-China Relations is not the appropriate committee to examine these unredacted documents. Is that correct?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

As I said, documents were provided to this committee that redacted personal or security information, but the fully unredacted documents have been provided to a committee where parliamentarians have the appropriate clearance and training and protocols in order to protect that information.

As I further said, I will continue to appear before any committee of the House that asks for my appearance and fully agree with the mandate of the Prime Minister that we as ministers need to work in collaboration with all parties and, indeed, with both houses.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Minister, do you believe that all of the members who sit on this committee are not suitable for examining confidential documents?

Do you doubt the members who sit on this committee?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I would ask if you have the appropriate security clearance to be able to look at documents that are of national security interest. Also, I would say, do you doubt that your colleagues on the committee, who have the appropriate level of clearance, are able to do that job?

Listen, we know that this committee has received documents. Some of the information has been redacted to protect the privacy of individuals and the national security interests. That information is fully available from the unredacted documents at the other committee.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Thank you, Minister.

Thank you very much, Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Now we will go to Mr. Harris for six minutes, please.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Minister Hajdu, for joining us this evening.

Mr. Chong asked some questions relating to the legislation for NSICOP. One thing he referred to, of course, was that the members of the committee are appointed by the Governor in Council on the recommendation of the Prime Minister. According to subsection 5(1) of the legislation, they hold office “during pleasure until the dissolution of Parliament following their appointment.”

That means to me, Minister, that if there is an election called, the committee would be dissolved. There would be no members of that committee, and any work that they were doing would, in fact, disappear.

Is that correct?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I'm sorry. I don't feel qualified to speak to what the procedure of the committee is on dissolution of Parliament.

I can say that the committee has the fully unredacted documents at their disposal now.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

The legislation says very simply that the committee members hold office during pleasure until the dissolution of Parliament following their appointment, so they wouldn't exist as members of the committee thereafter. That's what the legislation says. I guess anyone listening can draw their own conclusions.

The legislation also provides that the minister may withhold information as well to which the committee would otherwise be entitled if there's information that constitutes special operational information and the provision of the information would be injurious to national security.

Has any information been withheld from NSICOP under that provision?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

My understanding is that President Stewart has forwarded a complete set of unredacted documents, but I will turn to him to say a few more words.

[Iain Stewart, President, Public Health Agency of Canada]

As Minister Hajdu said, we provided a complete and unredacted package of all materials to the committee.