Canada-China Relations Committee on June 14th, 2021

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Was it your direction, though?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

President Stewart and I discussed releasing those documents, and I agreed that it was an appropriate decision.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Minister. That's clear.

In documents we did receive, the former head of the lab, Matthew Gilmour, raised significant concerns about the proposed transfer, saying that more information was needed about what the intended use was and also whether there was a materials transfer agreement. He said there needed to be one, and there wasn't, as far as we know.

Should there have been a materials transfer agreement in place before the materials were transferred?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I can't speak to that question, but perhaps Dr. Poliquin can.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Minister, I'm interested in your view.

Is it your view that there should be materials transfer agreements in place when these things are transferred?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Again, Dr. Poliquin is responsible for the operation of the lab in accordance with the rules and the responsibilities of the people who work in that lab, and that's the best place to speak to—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Minister, it's a question of law and policy of the Government of Canada as to whether materials transfer agreements are required when we're sending material like this overseas. If you want to get back to the committee in writing about that, I would certainly appreciate it.

Mr. Gilmore raised these concerns, and he asked about how the materials were intended to be used.

Is there a policy, at the Government of Canada level, which requires verification of the intended use of materials that are sent, or is it the policy of the government that we simply trust the requesting lab about their stated intended uses?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Again, I think Dr. Poliquin is best placed to talk about the relationships with participating research labs.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Minister, I'm not interested in the particular relationships; I'm interested in the policies of the Government of Canada with respect to what is required in these cases.

In general, when there is a proposed transfer to another lab, is it the position of the government that there should be verification of the intended use, or is it the position that you trust what the recipient says?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Again, these are relationships that have stringent rules around how samples are used. I will turn to Dr. Poliquin. He can speak to the processes in place to ensure the safe use of samples.

Dr. Poliquin.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Minister, I'm interested in your response on this. Dr. Poliquin can follow up in writing at a later point, and I would welcome that.

Although we're meeting for three hours, it is in my view still limited time, given the issues we're dealing with.

I want to ask you this. Mr. Gilmour, subsequent to raising those concerns, left the lab and the country rather suddenly in the middle of the pandemic.

Do you know why Mr. Gilmour left his job, and did you have any conversations with Mr. Gilmour? Did you have a courtesy call? Did you have any discussions with him around the time of his departure?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I didn't speak to Mr. Gilmour. Perhaps Dr. Poliquin can speak to the renewal of the lab lead.

However, I will also say this. Obviously he is entitled to a certain degree of privacy for why he chose to leave. Again, with regard to people's HR, because personal employment choices are...really, this is private information.

I suppose that's a question you could have posed to him. He would have been more appropriate to answer it.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Minister, I understand that. I wanted to know if you had spoken to him or if you were aware....

Can I ask you, Minister, at a general level: Do you think we should be co-operating with the militaries of states that are committing genocide? Are there sort of moral limits in your view to research co-operation? Should we say that, because of the things those militaries are involved in, we shouldn't be co-operating with them, or is it from your perspective sort of open-ended, and we'll co-operate with anyone on research in the name of research co-operation?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

That's an interesting question. I would say that it's important that we continue to uphold human rights and dignity and a life free of violence, no matter what we do, and have that at the front of our lens.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Thank you, Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Genuis.

We'll now go on to Ms. Zann for five minutes, please.

If we don't have Ms. Zann—

[Emmanuel Dubourg, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

It's my turn, I think.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Go ahead, Mr. Dubourg.

[Emmanuel Dubourg, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

It is my turn to thank the Minister, who is very busy, for being here. She has even said that she has taken part in 25 meetings since the pandemic began. I also want to thank her for all the work she has done during the COVID‑19 pandemic. It is also because of her participation and her contribution that we are where we are today.

I want to welcome our witnesses, Mr. Stewart and Dr. Poliquin, too. This is not the first time they have appeared before us, but I would like to come back to a few points.

During this meeting, and even before, in the House, the opposition has often risen to somehow try to put down the National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians. It is made up of parliamentarians, and some parliamentarians are sending the message that the committee is of no importance. I was a member myself when it was created, and I can speak to the entire process I participated in to obtain a maximum security clearance. I can speak to the number of questions that each member had to answer and the number of examinations that each member had to pass to be able to sit on that important committee.

The committee is also composed of parliamentarians from the parties in the House. The party leaders, including the leaders of the Conservative Party and the NDP, had to submit the names of the members they wanted to sit on the committee. Those parliamentarians then underwent checks.

I can also point out to the members that when the committee was created, it was made up of Liberals, Conservatives and New Democrats. Diane Finley and Rob Nicholson, both from the Conservative Party, were members. Murray Rankin from the NDP was also a member. There were also senators from various groups who were members of the committee, which is supported by an independent secretariat.

The committee decides its own procedures. We always held our meetings in camera, in secure facilities, and even my employees could not know where we were meeting. We also considered how such committees work in other countries, such as the United Kingdom, Australia and France. Our job is to ask questions from a government-wide perspective and make recommendations.

In addition, in his news release announcing the creation of the committee, the Prime Minister wrote that it was going to help us ensure that our national security agencies continue to keep Canadians safe in a way that also safeguards our values, rights, and freedoms. The National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians Act received Royal assent. So the committee may review the legislative, regulatory, policy, administrative and financial framework for national security and intelligence. We fulfilled our mandate and met with all members of the security and intelligence community, including members of the RCMP and CSIS.

Minister, you responded to the request from the Standing Committee on Canada-China Relations, but you could not provide us with those documents because the committee members do not have that security clearance. So you did well to send it to the National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians, whose members have the necessary security clearance to analyze all of those documents and then report on them.

We also have to protect Canadians.

Minister, I want to tell you that you did well to send those documents to the National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Thank you, Mr. Dubourg.

Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to continue in the same vein as my friend Mr. Genuis. So that it is quite clear for the Minister, I am going to ask my question as simply as possible.

Is there a connection between the departure of Matthew Gilmour from the National Microbiology Laboratory and the actions of Ms. Qiu and Mr. Cheng?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Again, asking questions about an individual's reasons for departure is likely inappropriate for this particular committee. This is a personal decision that the director of the lab made, and I'm not going to speak about his decisions or departure—

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Right, thank you, Minister.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

—from the lab.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

There are still...

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Probably it's best to ask that question of the individual, and you had the opportunity to do so.