Canada-China Relations Committee on Nov. 9th, 2020

[Prof. Steve Tsang]

Whether China has Xi Jinping or not, it will tighten up control over Hong Kong at some stage. The promise of 50 years of no change in Hong Kong always implied that, by 2047, the Chinese government expects Hong Kong to be another Chinese city.

The extension of the arrangement for the 50 years was never really on the agenda, but we are talking about 22 and 23 years into the 50-year period. There is, therefore, no need for Hong Kong to have reached the point that it has reached now. That is the result of Xi Jinping's change in his approach, but even without Xi Jinping, at some stage we will get to where we are now.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Let me play devil's advocate and ask the following question: in the face of such an implacable situation, how relevant is it for western states, including Canada, to demand respect for the democratic rights of Hongkongers and the principle of “one country, two systems” when, in your opinion, in the more or less long term, Hong Kong will in any case be part of the territory of the People's Republic of China under one and the same system?

[Prof. Steve Tsang]

First of all, 50 years or 23 years, it's a big difference. Second, it's the right thing to do. Canada believes in human rights and individual freedom, and this is one of those issues. We are talking about 300,000 Canadians who are being caught up in this as well. It is a matter where, if we don't do it, things will change and it will have much wider implications beyond Hong Kong. I think we should do what we can about the situation in Hong Kong.

We should also hold the Chinese government to their international treaty obligation of keeping Hong Kong as it was for 50 years. If we don't do that, the Chinese government will get the sense that they are not required to honour their treaty obligations. That will not be good for anybody, including Canada.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Thank you very much for your response. The other witnesses may want to add something.

On this point, the PRC government keeps repeating, in a somewhat cavalier manner I must say, that it is none of our business and that we have no business interfering in its internal affairs. We know that the People's Republic of China is trying to isolate western states from each other. I had little hope, under the Trump administration, that we could create some sort of alliance of western states against the People's Republic of China to get it to change its attitude.

What arguments do we have to counter those of the People's Republic of China that this is none of our business? What hope do we have of being able to create this alliance of western states against the People's Republic of China in order to make it respect its legal obligations?

[Prof. Steve Tsang]

The reality is that China exists. Xi Jinping exists. We have to engage with this government as a reality. The only way we can engage with them is to hold true to our values without being provocative unnecessarily. When the Chinese government is being unfair, when they say it's interference in Chinese domestic affairs when what we are all doing is holding the Chinese government to its international treaty obligations, as we do with other countries, then I don't think we are interfering with their domestic affairs. We should hold to that.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Is there anything else other witnesses would like to add? Is there enough time left, Mr. Chairman?

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

There are only 15 seconds left, unfortunately.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

In that case, I might get a 15-second response from one of the other two witnesses.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Does anyone have a thought for 10 seconds?

They might wait until the next round to answer.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Very good, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Thank you very much, Mr. Bergeron.

We will now have Mr. Harris for six minutes.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you very much.

Thank you to all the witnesses. Of course, we have three witnesses and, as you just found out, six minutes, so I will try to be succinct.

Professor Tsang, you were on record in 2016 as saying, “A strong and well-articulated international response that brings the matter to [President] Xi’s attention may persuade him that it is in China’s best interest to put a stop to this process of undermining the 'one country, two systems' framework.” From hearing what you said today, I think you believe that's still the case. At the same time, you're also quoted as saying that it would be preferable to continue the one country, two systems model with a “tolerable” erosion rather than having it completely lost, and talking about the greater bay initiative.

Is there some contradiction between these positions, or could you clarify that for us?

[Prof. Steve Tsang]

You're actually right. That sounds like a bit of a contradiction. I think I'm just trying to be a pragmatist here. We need to acknowledge that in Hong Kong we are doing a holding operation. The travel is moving in a direction we don't like, and it is going to continue. Xi Jinping will be able to take a lot of international negative responses before he will make any response to that.

It doesn't mean we don't hold to it. We also have to be realistic and, therefore, hold on to as much as we can, rather than simply go out and ask for something that we simply cannot hold and he will not concede, with an even faster erosion of individual rights and individual freedoms in Hong Kong.

We want to keep that for as long as we can. Hopefully, things in China itself will also change.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

There is an expectation or at least a possibility that in 15 years' time there may be a different approach being taken by China, partly as a result of international action. Is that what you're saying?

[Prof. Steve Tsang]

That's one possibility. Another possibility is that things will change in China. The way Xi Jinping is governing China in the short term makes the Communist Party much stronger, much more powerful, much harder, but it also makes the regime much more brittle. Xi Jinping himself knows that. If we go back to what happened with the pandemic in China in February and March, when they were talking about a Chernobyl moment in China, they were seriously frightened of the regime's instability. They are constantly worried about regime security. If they are so worried about it, there is usually a reason.

If Hong Kong still has something like 26 or 27 years left, let's keep that for as long as we can. If things change, Hong Kong may still stand a bit of a chance.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

I take it, then, that regardless of the scenario, it's a worthy thing to pursue right now as strongly as we can.

Are there any specifics you would suggest as part of that collective action?

[Prof. Steve Tsang]

I think I will go back to the point about coordinating with all the other democracies with a significant number of the nationals in Hong Kong, because that is one thing that will really get them to take notice more than anything else. Individually, none of us will be able to persuade the Chinese government to make any change. At the moment, the Chinese government does not believe any of these governments will stand by their nationals in Hong Kong, who are mostly, in fact, dual nationals. We have to persuade the Chinese government that, yes, we really mean it, and for them to take it seriously.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you.

Ms. Tung, I would like to ask you a couple of questions. First of all, thank you for your presentation. There are two questions I'm interested in. I will ask you both of them, and hopefully you can touch on both.

In terms of Chinese nationals, or Chinese Canadians, shall we say, is there fear amongst the Chinese population in Canada that they may self-censor or behave in a different manner in their activities as a result of what's going on in China today and in Hong Kong in particular? Do these advertisements you are talking about—the Chinese benevolent society and others—have a following at all among the Canadian Chinese?

Second, you talked about Canada helping the Hong Kong Chinese with a lifeboat. How do you envisage that taking place?

[Mabel Tung]

Actually, a large number of Canadians, on our Canadian soil, were kind of scared right after July 1, 2020, because of the national security law. Some of those who attend our rallies and activities wear not just masks, but they do everything to cover their face and even the gestures of their body. Some are really doing self-censorship. They are not attending and they are not speaking.

The Chinese government has a lot of history of intimidating not just the people here but also their families in China. We have a lot of stories from Amnesty International reports about harassment that has been done to our Canadians on Canadian soil. Even some organizations or radio stations stay away from talking about the topic. For a few months the topic has been really gentle about the pandemic and not about anything happening in Hong Kong. You can see that—

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Ms. Tung, I'm sorry to interrupt, but Mr. Harris's time is up.

[Mabel Tung]

Okay.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Hopefully, you will have others who will ask you questions that will draw out the rest of that.

We'll go now to the second round.

First, for five minutes, we have Mr. Genuis.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to all the witnesses.

In particular, Mr. Nelson, your discussion about having cameras follow you in Hong Kong reminded me of an experience I had in Hong Kong as far back as 2017, when I was there on a parliamentary committee trip and had dinner at Jimmy Lai's house. A car followed me all the way back to my hotel, and someone jumped out to take photos. It was quite a striking experience for a relatively new member of Parliament, so thank you for sharing your experience on that score as well.

My first question is for Mr. Tsang.

During his questioning, Mr. Fragiskatos made a sort of side comment and said that Canada cannot lead this effort. It struck me, because I don't think I agree. I think Canada could play a unique leadership role on the issue of Hong Kong. I think we're uniquely positioned. We don't have the same colonial history in Asia, we don't have the same sort of superpower baggage and we have deep ties with Hong Kong.

Do you have thoughts specifically on the leadership role Canada could play in response to what's happening in Hong Kong?

[The Clerk of the Committee, Ms. Marie-France Lafleur]

Mr. Chair, I am very sorry. Mr. Tsang had to leave.

Maybe I can forward your question to him by email.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

I'm sorry, Mr. Genuis. I did mention that earlier, but it's not surprising that you would think he would be able to answer now. I'm going to give you a bit of time for that, so perhaps you could start with another question for someone else.