Canada-China Relations Committee on Feb. 6th, 2023

[Paul Chiang, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Would that be with our Five Eyes partners? Are we working with them in collaboration to make sure we have eliminated these police stations?

[C/Supt Matt Peggs]

Yes, we're in communication with the Five Eyes partners about this issue and about ongoing investigations.

[Paul Chiang, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Are you aware of any instances where Canadians have been pressured or harassed by these foreign agents?

[Brigitte Gauvin]

Thank you for the question.

As mentioned previously, the RCMP will receive numerous allegations, and we follow up on every allegation or complaint received from the public or other sources of information. We will investigate and....

I'm sorry. Could you repeat the question?

[Paul Chiang, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

The question was on the police stations. Has there been harassment against our citizens, or pressure?

[Brigitte Gauvin]

Thank you for clarifying.

Yes, we will investigate all the allegations of harassment and intimidation, as this is not tolerated by the RCMP or the Government of Canada. Although I'm not at liberty to reveal any specific details of ongoing investigations, if the RCMP receives complaints or allegations of intimidation or harassment, we will definitely be investigating those allegations.

[Paul Chiang, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Your answer was just generalizing it by saying, “If we receive any calls like that.” However, do we have information on any harassment being conducted against our citizens?

[C/Supt Matt Peggs]

Are you talking specifically about the alleged police stations?

[Paul Chiang, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

That's right.

[C/Supt Matt Peggs]

To maintain the integrity of the investigation as well as the security and the privacy of those who will be—

[Paul Chiang, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

I'm sorry. Could I interject there for a moment?

I'm not asking you for pertinent information on anybody in particular. I'm asking, if any actual harassment or threatening has been done. I understand you are investigating the police stations, but has there been any actual threatening or harassment done? I'm not asking about the specific investigation.

[C/Supt Matt Peggs]

Right. The best way I can answer that is to say, as my colleagues have mentioned earlier, when we went forward overtly, when we were doing interviews and things like that, that was part of the overall investigation into the existence of the alleged police stations. I really don't want to confirm details of what we learned as a result of that investigation.

[Paul Chiang, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Has the Canadian government reached out to the Chinese government in regard to these police stations?

That's my final question.

[Brigitte Gauvin]

Currently, we haven't engaged with the Chinese government.

[Paul Chiang, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

We'll now go to Mr. Trudel, for six minutes or less.

[Denis Trudel, Bloc, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ladies and gentlemen, witnesses, I am sure you are very competent officers. I do not question your competence. However, China has been in the news a lot lately. I mentioned it earlier. There was the balloon story, there is talk of Chinese police stations, interference in elections, and so on. This is a major issue. It is discussed during question period, when ministers are often asked about it. We also hear about spying at Hydro-Québec. You mentioned it earlier. It's all been in the news.

As police officers involved in these kinds of stories, when they make the headlines, it must affect your pride a little. You must want to do something about it and stop it from happening. It's almost as if drug dealers are having fun doing deals outside municipal police stations or as if China is taunting your services in broad daylight.

Clearly, there is something Canada is not doing. There are tools that we don't have to deal with these problems, since it's in the news day after day and you don't know when it's going to stop. Given these problems, I imagine that you have frequent meetings with politicians and ministers and that you make representations.

Since you are on the ground, you must know what tools you lack to prevent Chinese balloons and police stations from making headlines, and spies from being discovered day after day in Canada's sensitive infrastructure. You must know what we're missing, what we're not doing here that other countries may be doing.

What are these tools? What do you say to politicians when you meet them? What do you say to the Minister of Public Safety, who was here earlier?

There was talk earlier about the creation of a foreign agents' register. We were told that this could be a useful tool. What other tools would you need to prevent China from continuing to make headlines and taunting our intelligence services?

[Brigitte Gauvin]

Thank you for your comments and questions, Mr. Trudel.

Indeed, we are also concerned about these threats of foreign interference and the magnitude they are taking on these days. The RCMP takes any threat seriously, it is a priority. Foreign interference threats are significant and are fully investigated by the RCMP.

We work with our domestic and international partners to obtain all the information necessary to investigate any foreign interference threats. We maximize the use of our tools and other available tools, and we are certainly prepared to use additional ones.

[Denis Trudel, Bloc, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Exactly; what are these tools? You say that the Royal Canadian Mounted Police works with the tools at its disposal, but you also seem to imply that it does not have enough. What tools do you need?

[Brigitte Gauvin]

We use the Criminal Code and other federal statutes to lay charges in our foreign interference investigations, as I mentioned earlier. That said, we are always open to proposals to add tools—

[Denis Trudel, Bloc, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Pardon me for interrupting, but I will repeat my question: what tools do you need?

[Brigitte Gauvin]

You should put the question to the representatives of the Department of Public Safety. If we are consulted, we will certainly provide feedback on proposed new tools.

[Denis Trudel, Bloc, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Can you share those comments with us now? What is Canada not doing that other countries are doing?

Earlier, we talked about Ireland and the Netherlands ordering the closure of foreign police stations. Why has that not been done in Canada? What tools do Ireland and the Netherlands have that Canada does not have?

[Sébastien Aubertin-Giguère, Assistant Deputy Minister, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness]

I don't have specific details about the Netherlands. The geopolitical reality is what it is and the threat is growing. China has a very aggressive policy in this regard. So it is normal that this is more present. It is a reality in all countries in the western world.

We can't necessarily draw the conclusion that this represents a vulnerability for Canada. Of course, there is frustration, but also a novelty factor, which cuts across several vectors.

We have tools in a lot of areas, such as cybersecurity and the protection of democratic institutions or laws against foreign interference and espionage. We have a lot of tools, but the threat is obviously constantly evolving and we have to keep adapting our tools.

I won't go into detail, but I can say that we are in the process of—

[Denis Trudel, Bloc, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

We are here precisely to obtain this kind of detail.