Canada-China Relations Committee on Feb. 6th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

Thank you, acting director general.

Now we'll go to director general Adam Fisher for five minutes or less.

[Adam Fisher, Director General, Intelligence Assessments, Canadian Security Intelligence Service]

Mr. Chair, members of the committee, good evening.

My name is Adam Fisher and I am the director general of Intelligence Assessments within the Canadian Security Intelligence Service. I would like to thank you for inviting me to meet with you today. I will be pleased to answer any questions you may have about this study.

As has been noted, the case this committee is studying is under close investigation by the RCMP. While I am sure you will appreciate that I cannot get into specifics in order to protect our sources and methods, CSIS endeavours to support its partners to the best of its ability across all manner of foreign interference investigations.

CSIS investigates and provides advice to government on threats to the security of Canada, such as foreign interference. We take any allegation of foreign interference seriously and have several long-standing and emerging foreign interference investigations across Canada today. As always, close alignment with the RCMP on national security matters is critical.

Foreign interference is covert and malign activity undertaken by a foreign state to advance its national interests to the detriment of Canada's. These activities threaten Canada's democratic institutions, policy process, economy, communities and free press.

Foreign interference can take multiple forms. Threat actors may attempt to elicit sensitive information from those they perceive to have access and influence, cultivating relationships with these individuals over a very long period of time. Threat actors may aggressively threaten or coerce their targets into acting in a certain way. This is a common activity impacting Canada's diverse communities. Other techniques include illicit financing, cyber-attacks, espionage and disinformation campaigns.

A number of foreign states engage in these activities. For example, China's attempts to threaten and intimidate individuals around the world have been well reported in open sources. To be clear, the threat does not come from the Chinese people but rather from the Chinese Communist Party and the Government of China. Their activities can instill fear and silence dissent in Canadian communities and communities around the world.

Fighting foreign interference requires a pan-Canadian approach. Those threatened often lack the means to defend themselves or are unaware that they can report such activities to Canadian authorities, such as CSIS.

This also requires an understanding of the threat. We have prioritized outreach and engagement with communities across Canada to build awareness and resilience. Last year, for example, CSIS's “Foreign Interference and You” publication outlined in several languages concrete ways that Canadians can defend themselves against foreign interference. Our goal is to strengthen individual resilience and to protect Canadians and their interests.

Canadians can be assured that CSIS and the government take these threats very seriously. Both the RCMP and CSIS have phone numbers and online reporting mechanisms that are monitored 24-7 for anyone who would like to report a threat to national security, including foreign interference.

To conclude, foreign interference is a rising challenge for the whole of our society. However, I want to assure this committee that CSIS is steadfast in its commitment to keep all Canadians safe.

With that, I'm happy to take your questions. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

Thank you, Mr. Fisher.

To questions we will go.

Mr. Chong, you have six minutes or less.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses for appearing as we continue this hearing we're having today.

My question concerns both the protection of national security and whether it's being threatened by foreign interference, and the protection of our intellectual property as it's threatened by espionage.

To my knowledge, in the last several years, only one person has been investigated and charged with either of these two things. That was a Hydro-Québec employee who was charged just a short time ago with allegedly stealing secrets, intellectual property, to transfer to the People's Republic of China.

I don't want to talk about anything that concerns an active investigation. I want to point out that's the only case I know of that has led to the arrest of someone, the laying of charges and prosecution. I don't know of anything else, yet I read in newspapers every day and every month that our closest Five Eyes intelligence allies are actually arresting agents of China in their territory and charging them. Just last year in the United States, on May 18, four PRC intelligence officers were charged with spying on prominent dissidents, Hong Kong activists and pro-democracy activists. On October 24, the United States charged 13 people in three separate cases regarding foreign interference and espionage. On October 20, six people were charged as illegal agents of the People's Republic of China in the United States. On November 17, a U.S. court sentenced a PRC spy to 20 years for stealing trade secrets.

In the United Kingdom a year ago, MI5 came forward with naming and shaming Christine Lee for a being an agent of the PRC in the U.K. Parliament. Just over two years ago, the United Kingdom expelled three people posing as journalists who were actually spies and agents of the PRC.

Yet here in Canada, I don't hear about anything other than this one case that I heard about three days ago.

Maybe you can tell us if I'm wrong, if there are any other cases that have led to prosecution.

[Brigitte Gauvin]

Thank you for the question.

You are correct. In December 2022, the RCMP federal policing program led to a charge of breach of trust by a public officer against Mr. Wang.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

I appreciate that answer.

Here's the other thing I'm concerned about. An internal report was made public in April of last year. In that report it came to light that RCMP officers refused to catch and release an individual who was a threat to our national security about whom they were notified by CSIS. CSIS called up the RCMP and said, “We need to thwart an active national security threat, an active threat to the intellectual property, to the national security of this country, and we are requesting that the RCMP catch and release this individual”, and the RCMP refused. That came out in this report in April of last year.

How is the public supposed to have confidence in the ability of our law enforcement to protect the national security of this country and to protect us against espionage, when in the last several years, while our closest Five Eye allies have arrested and charged and convicted many people and named and shamed people, we've had only one case that's led to a prosecution? Meanwhile, we get internal reports that the RCMP and CSIS aren't even co-operating on an investigation, on a catch-and-release, on sharing information.

How is the public supposed to have confidence that this country is protecting our national security and protecting us against espionage?

[Brigitte Gauvin]

If I may continue answering the first question the honourable member had, I do in fact have two other examples of where individuals were charged by the RCMP, one of them being in November of 2019, when a now former employee of Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada, who worked at the facility in Swift Current, was charged with a number of Criminal Code offences: breach of trust by public officer, fraud over $5,000 and possession of proceeds of crime over $5,000. In November of 2022—

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Just to clarify, on that first case, was that in relation to a threat to national security or a threat to intellectual property?

[Brigitte Gauvin]

The allegations were in relation to theft of intellectual property, which falls under the national security program.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

I understand.

What's the second case?

[Brigitte Gauvin]

The next one was in December 2021. The federal policing national security program charged an ex-employee of the Canadian Space Agency. That was Mr. Zheng of Brossard, Quebec. He was charged in relation to illegal activities carried out alongside his duties at the Canadian Space Agency. We initiated an investigation in October 2019 after receiving information from the CSA's departmental security. Mr. Zheng allegedly used his status as a CSA engineer to negotiate agreements for the installation of satellite station facilities in Iceland. He had allegedly acted on behalf of a Chinese aerospace company. The matter is currently before the courts.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Thank you for the elucidation of those three cases—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

Thank you, Mr. Chong. Your time has expired.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

—but the other question I wouldn't mind having answered at some point.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

There will be other opportunities.

Mr. Chiang, now to you for six minutes or less.

[Paul Chiang, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here tonight. It's a long night for all of you.

You mentioned earlier in your opening remarks about threats and foreign interference. How prevalent are they? I understand you said three people are being charged, that we had three incidents in the last little while. How prevalent are threats and foreign interference in Canada by foreign actors?

[Brigitte Gauvin]

Thank you for the question.

The RCMP national security program receives a number of allegations regarding foreign actor interference and will investigate every allegation or complaint received. In doing so, we will collaborate with our domestic and international partners. We will engage with the communities. We share information. We investigate these allegations to the fullest of our abilities.

[Paul Chiang, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Thank you.

[Adam Fisher]

I can try to answer your question as well, if you like.

[Paul Chiang, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Yes, please.

[Adam Fisher]

Very quickly, certainly from a service perspective, our assessment of the threat is that it's been increasing, without a doubt, over the last five to 10 years. Certainly, with the geopolitical environment and technology, we're seeing more foreign interference. We're seeing more espionage and hostile state activity here in Canada, in particular being perpetrated by the People's Republic of China, but there are others as well. It's certainly our estimation that the threat environment will continue to increase in the years ahead.

[Paul Chiang, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Thank you so much.

Mr. Fisher, in follow-up to your answer, when you say “others as well”, are these other countries you're talking about or...?

[Adam Fisher]

Yes. Although China certainly dominates in this space, Russia is known to be active in foreign interference as well as other countries, such as Iran. Those are the three countries we speak publicly of. There is a very short list beyond that, but those are the most persistent and worrisome threats we're seeing today.

[Paul Chiang, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Fisher.

In regard to the Chinese police stations, do we have information on other countries having these Chinese police stations? Are we working with other governments in regard to tracking and stopping these police stations?

[Chief Superintendent Matt Peggs, Criminal Operations Officer, O Division (Ontario), Royal Canadian Mounted Police]

Thank you for the question.

Yes, we are working with other governments as well. Although there were the ones reported in Toronto and in Vancouver, there were others reported around the globe as well. Unfortunately, this is an experience that's shared by many countries right now.