Canada-China Relations Committee on March 20th, 2023

[Dr. Roromme Chantal]

That is a question that, again, is extremely important.

My position on this subject is not the most popular, since there are growing numbers of voices calling for a virtually total uncoupling of western economies from China's. I don't think this strategy serves Canada's national interest.

Today, we need to be responsible, even if we have convictions. China is a major power on the Security Council. You can't do anything about climate change without cooperating with China. On poverty-related problems in Africa, for example, you have to collaborate with China.

Despite China's unpopularity, and even a certain hysteria when it comes to China that sometimes leads to irrational policies, I would propose that we keep a certain perspective. Yes, we have to address the challenges posed by China, but without necessarily breaking off all ties with China, because, to my mind, that would not be in Canada's national interest.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chantal.

Ms. Harth, feel free to answer in English, but I thought your French was impeccable. On this International Francophonie Day, it would be fine if you wanted to answer in French.

On the subject of the police stations, how did you manage to discover that they exist, whether in Canada or elsewhere?

Can you explain the process you followed, to the public who are listening to us? What information enabled you to make that discovery?

[Laura Harth]

I apologize. I will respond in English, because it's easier and I want to make sure that I'm very precise on this.

We came across the police stations when we were tracking how, exactly, Chinese authorities managed to return—according to their own statements—230,000 individuals through clandestine means between April 2021 and July 2022 alone. As we tracked these operations, we came across two jurisdictions in particular, which are the ones mentioned in “110 Overseas”. Together with some chatter among dissidents and activists on social media channels, in looking at these two jurisdictions, we came across statements on the websites of the public security authorities themselves, as well as confirmation of those reports in PRC state and party media.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

Thank you very much, Mr. Cormier.

We'll now go to our third round. We'll get into it a bit.

We have Mr. Chong for five minutes or less.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have a couple of questions for Ms. Harth.

First, do you think Interpol has lost its usefulness because the PRC has used it as part of their persuasion to return operations? How do governments and law enforcement in countries like Canada prevent the abuse of Interpol by the PRC?

[Laura Harth]

The abuse of Interpol by the PRC and other authoritarian regimes is a big issue for that organization. I think democratic nations, one, need to step up to the plate again in international organizations such as Interpol, but also others. For too much time we've kind of let countries such as the PRC get away with a lot. We may need to think about alternative means of working.

That includes, by the way, if you'll allow me to say, the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime, which has a standing memorandum of understanding with the Central Commission for Discipline Inspection, kind of the Chinese Communist Party internal police, and has appointed that organ, which is in charge of all of these transnational policing operations, as the focal point for all work under that convention. That is a big issue that we need to deal with urgently.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Thank you.

You mentioned earlier that some 11,000 people have been forced to return to China under these persuasion to return operations. Can you tell us how many from Canada you estimate have been persuaded to return?

I have a second part to that question. Last fall an indictment was unsealed in a Brooklyn, New York court stating that the Chinese government, from Toronto, was trying to coerce persons in the United States to leave the United States to go to Toronto for more intensive interrogations rather than doing those more intensive interrogations on U.S. soil. Is it the implication that Canada has become somewhat of a safe haven for these persuasion to return operations, for this kind of foreign interference threat activity, when you read that kind of evidence that the U.S. justice department has outlined in the unsealed indictment?

[Laura Harth]

It's very hard to look into individual operations. There's not a lot of evidence on individual operations. We do have some larger numbers that are put out there by the PRC authorities, but we do see the use of third countries happening not only with Canada but also in other places.

I would say, though, that it might be a very good indication that the actions the U.S. authorities have been putting in place in a cross-departmental fashion over the past two or three years are effective, at least to the extent of maybe scaring them a bit more, so trying to conduct those operations on foreign soil where that attention was just not as present.

When it comes to individual operations, though, we have big numbers. It's very hard to find those individual cases. I can tell you that anecdotal evidence, again open source, indicates that at least three persuasion to return operations have taken place on Canadian soil. There's likely many more, but those are the numbers we can get from the evidence.

Just to be clear, the PRC authorities state that they conduct these operations in over 120 countries around the world. That is virtually every single country in the world, be there a police station or not.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chong.

We'll now go to Mr. Ehsassi for five minutes or less.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I will start off with Mr. Leuprecht.

Mr. Leuprecht, I was listening to what you had to say. I think you were insinuating that the Americans are very disappointed that Canada is not vigilant enough. Am I correct in that assumption?

[Dr. Christian Leuprecht]

Of course we want to conduct our own and sovereign foreign policy, but yes, I think we can see concerns on national security, intelligence and defence matters across the spectrum, including by the U.S. ambassador.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Okay.

With respect to these balloons that you're very much concerned about, did you see much of a divergence in the manner in which the Americans dealt with them and how Canadians dealt with them?

[Dr. Christian Leuprecht]

Well, as I pointed out in my op-ed in The Globe, in the U.S. the Secretary of State very clearly called out the violation of international law and unacceptable conduct. In Canada we called in the Chinese ambassador, and that was everything we heard about it. The official word—

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

But in terms of actions, you would agree that we both dealt with them identically. Is that correct?

[Dr. Christian Leuprecht]

I think I lay out considerable differences in the way we dealt with them in the two countries publicly.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

No. We both used NORAD and we shot them down. Is that not correct?

[Dr. Christian Leuprecht]

The public communication was very different in the two countries by—

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Okay. So that's the first issue.

With respect to these police stations, have you seen a huge divergence between how Canadians have dealt with them and Americans?

[Dr. Christian Leuprecht]

There is certainly a more robust capacity in the United States to investigate such matters.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

But in terms of how the two countries have reacted to these so far, have you seen a divergence?

[Dr. Christian Leuprecht]

We see actual investigations in the United States and unsealed indictments.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Are you saying there aren't investigations here in Canada? Is that what you are suggesting?

[Dr. Christian Leuprecht]

I would like to see some indictments. We have been investigating the Winnipeg lab for three and half years.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

No, seeing is one thing; are you suggesting that there aren't investigations going on in Canada?