Canada-China Relations Committee on March 20th, 2023

[Dr. Roromme Chantal]

I'm sorry.

Thank you for the question.

I am of the same opinion as Ms. Harth. It isn't that China is the only country accused of conducting these kinds of operations; however, to my knowledge, it is perhaps the only power in the contemporary world that systematically engages in these kinds of operations in democratic societies as a way of controlling its nationals there.

As well, and as Ms. Harth also said, when there are demonstrations in some countries, such as the United States, agents identified as Chinese emissaries are said to be present for the purpose, for example, of physically assaulting or intimidating demonstrators. Given all the Chinese communities that potentially exist in these countries, China would be the only country that makes such systematic use of this approach.

I can't give any more details about that idea, but I believe it must be seen as linked to a new type of influence that China is now exercising, that is being called “nuisance power”.

This is a multidimensional strategy that comprises numerous facets and does not solely involve establishing police stations; it also seeks to use China's economic power as a lever to muzzle a certain influential voice or certain organizations.

We saw this when a manager in the National Basketball Association, or NBA, took a position in support of Hong Kong. A player had taken a position, and the association was then obliged to retract and take a position in favour of China.

It is a much more multidimensional strategy that comprises numerous facets.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

Thank you, Dr. Chantal.

We'll now go to Mr. Trudel for six minutes or less.

[Denis Trudel, Bloc, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thanks also to this evening's guests for being here with us.

I would like to start with a brief question that is for all three of you.

Yes or no: do you think China is listening to our discussions right now?

[Laura Harth]

Probably.

[Denis Trudel, Bloc, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Ms. Harth says that is probably the case.

What do you say, Mr. Leuprecht?

[Dr. Christian Leuprecht]

I don't doubt it, because one of the main objectives of foreign diplomats is to gather open sources, and our discussions this evening are open.

China has the second largest diplomatic corps in Canada, after the United States, so there is certainly a Chinese diplomat taking good notes right now.

[Denis Trudel, Bloc, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Right.

Mr. Chantal, what do you think?

[Dr. Roromme Chantal]

I don't have the technological knowledge to testify to it, but it should not be ruled out.

[Denis Trudel, Bloc, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Let us say good evening to Mr. Jinping, who is certainly nearby taking notes.

Mr. Chantal, you referred earlier to nuisance power, as opposed to the power of persuasion that China had relied on in the past. We heard Ms. Harth say that China is present in hundreds of countries in the world.

However, I believe that Canada is still a relatively marginal power on the global scene. Since I am a bit curious, I would like to ask you this question: why is China interested in Canada?

[Dr. Roromme Chantal]

Mr. Trudel, that is an important question.

Joe Clark, a former prime minister of Canada, says in a book that Canada doesn't maintain its place and its influence on the international scene solely because of its size and power in the traditional sense of the word and its special ties with the United States. Canada is also a member of the G7. We have seen how Canada used its relationship with the European Union very effectively when the two Michaels, Michael Spavor and Michael Kovrig, were arrested in China. Canada conducted a very effective campaign that involved demonstrating the extent to which China was engaged in hostage diplomacy.

Up to now, Canada has had an influential voice on the international scene despite a decline in the weight it once had. In addition, China places great weight on its reputation because the idea of a Chinese menace that is increasingly widespread in the west prevents China from projecting the image of a benevolent power, which is therefore different from the United States, for example. Its leaders make it a point of honour to portray China as a friendly power. A dispute like the one we saw with Canada caused considerable damage to China's image.

We have seen how, based on the information collected, China tried to prevent the election of the Conservative Party, which is perceived as being more critical or tougher on China, while at the same time trying to avert the election of a majority government.

For the moment, we don't know whether those efforts had very clear impacts, but it is all part of this strategy of using its nuisance power to pervert Canadian democracy in the direction, obviously, of the interests of China and the Chinese Communist Party.

[Denis Trudel, Bloc, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chantal.

Mr. Leuprecht, this question is for you. In your statement when we began this evening, you said that Beijing's espionage and interference posed an existential threat to Canada's democratic way of life. That really is pretty strong language.

Can you explain your comments a little?

[Dr. Christian Leuprecht]

Yes, I am a bit worried about the fact that in the discussion we are having, we are still looking in a very isolated way at the various efforts to interfere and to violate Canadian sovereignty. We are focusing on certain points, such as police stations, or certain episodes of interference targeting a few candidates, instead of seeing the full scope of the actions carried out. Those actions lie in a grey zone where asymmetrical and hybrid wars on China's are waged, with China engaging its efforts on the diplomatic, economic, military, defence, social, and educational fronts, in information technology, and so on.

So we have to broaden our field of vision and realize that China is trying to threaten the democratic way of life we value in Canada.

[Denis Trudel, Bloc, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

So I understand that we have to have a comprehensive view of international politics.

In the same vein, we have learned that China is alleged to have intervened in municipal elections in Vancouver. It has not been confirmed, but it would seem that a municipal councillor in Brossard was elected thanks in part to the fact that people presumed to be working for the Chinese secret services posted messages on chat boards like WeChat.

What is China's interest in having representatives on municipal councils?

[Dr. Christian Leuprecht]

China invests a considerable amount in interfering in democratic institutions. It is done on a scale that aims at acquiring influence at all levels of politics. It also invests in politicians who will then be better known and be able to run in other elections. This strategy is well documented in connection with China's efforts.

[Denis Trudel, Bloc, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

Thank you, Mr. Trudel.

We'll go to Ms. McPherson for six minutes or less.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all of the witnesses for being here and sharing this information with us.

I also have a couple of questions I would like to ask all three witnesses.

First of all, this is very front and centre right now. The reports of the police stations are relatively recent; however, the idea that the Chinese government has exerted influence in Canada and has engaged in transnational repression is not new. This is something that Chinese Canadians have been warning us about for a very long time. They've been telling us that this has been happening within our academic institutions and our public spaces.

My question for you is: Why is there an increase now? I think I know the answer, but I would love to hear your perspectives on why there is an increased focus on this and increased implications from the Chinese government's interference in Canada. Also, you could touch on how you feel Canada's response to date has been and whether or not that has been a factor in why there may be a perceived or real increase in Chinese interference.

Perhaps I will start with you, Ms. Harth.

[Laura Harth]

I think, unfortunately, that you are right. None of this is new. This has been going on for decades. We've definitely seen an increase when it comes to transnational oppression since Xi Jinping came to power. This has been going on for a long time and will only keep growing.

Why is there this attention now? I think a lot of activists and dissidents who have reported for a long time are very frustrated. Safeguard Defenders itself was a bit frustrated, because we had reported on those operations before. I think the brazen violation of national sovereignty with the police stations is what got attention. It's quite sensational. Again, it is but the tip of the iceberg of what's going on.

In terms of responses, I think Canada, as any other democracy in the world, has for too long a time closed its eyes to everything that's going on, maybe hoping that it would go away if we just didn't look at it. That has obviously only allowed these operations to grow and is putting us today at increased risk.

I think it's good that everything is coming to the surface now. It is painful. It is going to be hard getting through this. It's important that this be out in the public and that society can take stock of everything that's going on, because awareness is the first step to addressing the issues. I hope we can move forward.

In that respect, I do have to say that, when it comes to the police stations, the response we've seen from the RCMP, from what we can gauge from media reports and so on, has definitely been among the best in democracies across the world.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you.

Mr. Chantal, can I ask you to go next?

[Dr. Roromme Chantal]

Do you want me to say something?

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Yes, please.

[Dr. Roromme Chantal]

I think my answer will involve examining three aspects of the issue.

Since Xi Jinping came to power, he has clearly put an end to what China had considered to be the “low profile” policy on the international scene since Deng Xiaoping. Xi Jinping thought that the time had come for China to claim a leadership role alongside the America superpower. He has even called for a new type of relationship among the great powers.

Obviously, the end of China's peaceful rise and the claim to a more active role led certain major powers to see a much greater Chinese threat. I am not saying that China was invading other countries around it in Asia. However, in response, Xi Jinping has tried to employ strategies that resembled public diplomacy, if you will, except that what China did, it did in secret.

The other thing, to finish, is that the world has very clearly fallen into a new cold war, even though some analysts refuse to use that term. Today, we very clearly have two models. On one side, we have the liberal democracy model, which brings together the United States, the American allies in western Europe and Canada, and on the other side, we have what is an authoritarian or neo-totalitarian model, according to some critics, proposed by China and Russia, for example.

Given all this, we must now expect that there will be a degree of aggression in the approach used by powers like China or Russia when it comes to the strategy we are discussing this evening.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

I'm so sorry to interrupt you. I do want to just give a little bit of time to Mr. Leuprecht as well, if I could.

[Dr. Christian Leuprecht]

I'll be very quick.

I think what we have is a culmination of 35 years of efforts by China. We also now have a critical mass of elite capture in this country as a result, which China is capitalizing on.

I would say in response that to date, I cannot share my colleague's optimism with regard to the RCMP. Show me the last national security foreign interference or espionage investigation the RCMP completed to the point where we actually had a prosecution and successful conviction in this country.

I think the Chinese regime operates with impunity. Canada has not made any efforts to deter it, as we can see by the recent choice by Canada to stay out of, for instance, even something such as AUKUS.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

Thank you very much, Ms. McPherson.

We'll now go to our second round, beginning with Mr. Kmiec for five minutes or less.