Canada-China Relations Committee on April 15th, 2024

[David Vigneault]

Unfortunately, I will not be able to speak about our ongoing investigations.

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Is it fair to say, Mr. Vigneault, that CSIS provides security background, but the president of PHAC has the opportunity to provide a security clearance? Is there a way to circumvent that program?

[David Vigneault]

The government policy is quite clear that it's the deputy head of any organization who has the authority to grant and revoke a clearance based on the security advice the deputy head receives. I mentioned last week that the Treasury Board Secretariat, which was in charge of that policy, is modernizing it as we speak.

To Mr. Naqvi's question earlier about advice, I will not be providing advice to anyone. I will just say that there will be an opportunity here, through the work of this committee, to speak to this issue. How government clearances are issued is being reviewed as we speak. I think there's an opportunity here.

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Is it possible that at the time these scientists were working at the national microbiology lab, someone could have circumvented that process? The executive director, for instance, could say, “You can work at this lab without the completed work by CSIS.”

[David Vigneault]

If I understand the question, if someone allowed a person to do work that required clearance without that person having clearance, that would be a serious violation of policy. I would say this would be, of course, of real concern.

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Minister, why was a private security firm, Presidia, engaged to undertake the original investigation and not the RCMP in this particular case?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Again, I was not the public safety minister when these decisions were made, and I don't understand the precise delineation of the authorities of the Public Health Agency.

My understanding is that they had initially.... Again, the director spoke to me about this last week, Dr. Ellis. I don't want to avoid the question. The director will correct me if I'm wrong, but the Public Health Agency, of its own motion, retained a private firm to do an initial review—an administrative review, not a police investigation, obviously. That administrative review then led it to make the decisions that are properly within its purview to make. CSIS was obviously working with other partners, and the RCMP, as I think has been confirmed, is investigating this now in a potential criminal context.

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

For you, Mr.—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

Thank you, Dr. Ellis. Your time is up.

We'll go to Madam Lalonde for five minutes.

[Marie-France Lalonde, Liberal, Orléans, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I know that some of my colleagues were not here last week. I don't want to single out anyone in the room, but for clarification, maybe to frame this, I'll say that in my view, comments were made by one of my colleagues regarding.... This was spoken about last week by the minister and PHAC quite extensively. They mentioned that the shipment of Ebola and Henipah was authorized and that there was no unauthorized shipment or removal of any pathogens. It actually all went through the proper process.

I know, Minister, that you were not there. This is clarification for those who were not here last week.

I'm going to ask you a question related to the one asked by my colleague Mr. Naqvi.

Minister LeBlanc, your department, as mentioned, recently completed public consultation on the modernization of the CSIS Act. I know that you wanted to engage.

We were looking for your feedback. What feedback did Public Safety officials receive, and when can we expect to see updated legislation introduced?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Thank you for your question, Ms. Lalonde.

In response to your colleague's question, I wanted to point out that I became Minister of Public Safety last summer. In my initial discussions, within the department and with the director of the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, I was struck by the fact that the act establishing CSIS had been adopted when the late Brian Mulroney was prime minister. Forty years ago, the technology and the threats were very different.

We heard the CSIS director talk about the change of direction in China, one of a number of countries that CSIS monitors to protect our national security. I believe that this bill is an opportunity for Parliament, and that parliamentarians should pay close attention to it. We have to be sensitive to the protection of privacy and need to make sure that the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms is always complied with. At the same time, I think the time has come to discuss the modernization of the powers given by Parliament to the Canadian Security Intelligence Service with respect to intelligence technology and exchanges of information.

I was surprised in my conversations, for example, with the Premier of British Columbia, who, following the killing of Mr. Nijjar in his province last June, was understandably interested in having a sense of the threat landscape and what the various national security nexus points might be with respect to this incident. The director met with Premier Eby, but under the specific legislation, he was very limited in what he could share with a partner government in our federation, which is as important as the government of your province.

It struck me that if you have a partner in our federation that wants access in the right way to information about protecting their citizens in their particular province or territory.... I had conversations with the Premier of Yukon on the issue of the balloons that were flying over northern Canada.

There's an opportunity for us to give CSIS, in my view, modernized authorities from a technology perspective for sharing information. Business leaders have asked for the ability to work with CSIS. The Canadian Council of Chief Executives and other organizations have advocated for the right way to share the right information. I think there's an opportunity for us to modernize an institution that in my view has served the national security interests of Canadians very well for 40 years.

I've said this to the director and I've said it publicly: I'm impressed with the remarkable work that CSIS does. Much of it, by its very nature, is not public.

You can see the vicious circle. I have a chance to work with the director and others and to see and hear about the work they're doing. It's obviously—understandably—not as public as we might like, if only to celebrate some of the successes, but there's an opportunity to give them authorities for 2024-25 and not 1988.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

Thank you, Minister.

We'll now go to Mr. Villemure for two and a half minutes.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have some more questions for you, Minister. I have only two and a half minutes, which is not very long. So if possible, please keep your answers short.

I'm getting back to the topic of our naïveté. When did the government realize that things were not right? Was it in 2019, because of the incident at the National Microbiology Laboratory in Winnipeg? Or was it rather because of the controversy over the Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation? Could it have been because of another incident? Where was the tipping point signalling that the times and the relations had changed?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

I understand the question and I've given it considerable thought, given China's pre-eminent role. For example, I could mention its election interference last spring. I agree with what Mr. Vigneault was saying about the arrival of the current Chinese leader, Xi Jinping, and how he restructured the Chinese government in order to extend the country's influence around the world and consolidate China's economic and military power.

It's really a good question to ask a foreign policy expert.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

What I'd like to know is when the warning light came on for the government, of which you are a member. I know what Mr. Vigneault said because I read it. I know that after the fact, the change was blamed on Xi Jinping, but when precisely, when you were part of the government, in the circle of ministers, did the warning light come on for you?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

At the time, I was the minister of fisheries or minister of intergovernmental affairs. So I wasn't really dealing with issues of this kind. However, based on what I recollect from various conversations with my colleagues, there was no specific moment that led to a flash of insight. It was more a series of circumstances that heightened awareness, including the Two Michaels incident, with both men being held in a totally arbitrary and illegal manner, along with some other incidents. It was because of the increase in threatening and aggressive behaviour. I'm not speaking on behalf of other countries, but based on my conversations with other ministers of the interior, including the United States Secretary of Homeland Security, they were noticing the same things as we were: an increase in attempted interference, clandestine activities and the manner in which China was attempting to obtain economic information.

My impression is that it was over a specific period—

I hear a podcast. What is Charlie listening to?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

Somebody was trying to tell you that your time is up, Minister LeBlanc.

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Charlie, was that the alarm that my time was up?

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

That was me. I was like, come on, I love my colleague, but....

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

All right. Get the kids to put their phones down.

Mr. Angus, you have two and a half minutes.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

I'm very interested in the question of foreign interference through the use of AI and quantum computing.

We know that Congress led the way in trying to investigate the role of bot sites and Russian disinformation, which spread extremism during Canada's convoy crisis. Facebook was asked to testify. Congress identified fake sites out of Romania, Bangladesh and particularly Russia. The role of Russian disinformation in creating the chaos and deplorable conditions that we saw out of the convoy in Canada had a huge impact.

What steps are you taking as a government to deal with these issues of foreign interference through online threats, AI and deepfakes?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Mr. Angus, it's a very good question. I certainly share the concern that you've expressed about the potential damage that this technology, in the hands of hostile actors, could reap upon Canadians.

I've worked with your former colleague, Daniel Blaikie, on some changes to the Elections Act to deal with the use of this technology in the electoral context. Imagine the impact, in a 35-day election period, of one of these deepfakes. We're all alert to what we've seen in other countries. I totally share your concern.

At my briefings with the director of CSIS a few weeks ago at CSIS headquarters, they showed me how quickly and how easily that technology can create something that would leave a huge security gap.

I know Sébastien has some specific answers to Mr. Angus' question on Russian disinformation and AI.

[Sébastien Aubertin-Giguère, Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, National and Cybersecurity, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness]

We know the Russians are using disinformation to sow chaos. They are sending competing information, different news and divisive information. They are very active in that space. Their technological capabilities are evolving. Now that AI is cheap and widely available, we can know for sure the Russians are going to continue to use it, as will other known powers.

It's not a simple space to counter because of the sheer volume and capacity that this will generate. At the same time, our investments are really about the integrity of the information space and making sure that audiences have the tools to discern what is real and what is not. Also, working with—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

Thank you, sir. We'll have to call the time there.

Can we impose upon you for 10 more minutes?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Mr. Chair, I was going to meet a group of parliamentary colleagues on another issue. I wanted leave at 7:30, but the vote delayed us. A group of people have been waiting since 7:30. It's not our fault; we had these votes. They are parliamentary colleagues.