Canada-China Relations Committee on April 15th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

Okay, everyone, I think we'll get the formalities out of the way while the stragglers come into the room. The minister has been alarmingly flexible with his time tonight, which we appreciate, but we should get at it as soon as possible.

We'll let the minister get settled.

Substituting today, we have MP Angus for MP McPherson, Dr. Ellis for MP Seeback, MP Kazan for MP Kmiec, MP Cooper for MP Lantsman and Mr. Naqvi, of course, for Mr. Oliphant.

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Minister of Public Safety]

I'm substituting for Mark Holland, Mr. Chair, and David Vigneault is substituting for the commissioner of the RCMP, so nobody is here who is really here.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

Yes, and I'm Anna Maria Alberghetti, so we have everybody fooled.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

All right. On that note, we have Minister LeBlanc—or whoever he happens to be.

I have a few words for everybody. Let's keep answers short. Let's not keep talking over each other so that we don't make things difficult for our interpreters. Let's try to get as much ground covered as we can while we have the minister, which will be for a little less than an hour.

Let's go. You have five minutes, sir.

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

You're very kind, Mr. Chair.

Colleagues, good evening. Thank you for having me. Our proceedings were delayed by the vote, but I look forward to the conversation tonight. I appreciate the opportunity to appear at your committee this evening.

I'm joined by two colleagues with whom I work closely. David Vigneault, the director of CSIS, tells me he's spent more time at various parliamentary committees and public inquiries than he has at his office recently. He is always happy to be at these occasions, as am I. Sébastien Aubertin-Giguère works at the public safety department on issues of national security as well.

Canadian research is at the forefront of discovery and today’s work is driving solutions to humanity’s most pressing challenges. The evidence for this was clear during the pandemic.

Our country’s research is defined by its excellence and collaborative nature. Unfortunately, it is this very openness and collaboration with international partners that can make Canada a target for foreign interference and influence.

There is no question that foreign state actors are actively targeting Canadian academic and research institutions, as well as public and private organizations, to collect sensitive personal data and scientific knowledge and gain access to technology.

The Government of Canada takes the issue of safeguarding Canada's research enterprises very seriously. To that end, we've implemented a number of initiatives in the last couple of years to encourage a research environment that is as open and collaborative as possible, one that includes the necessary safeguards.

Budget 2022 announced the creation of the research security centre at the Department of Public Safety. We will be making, over the coming weeks, significant investments in bolstering the government's ability and the security and intelligence community's ability to detect, disrupt and counter all aspects of foreign interference.

This research security centre has advisers located across Canada. The centre is the first point of contact for Canadian researchers and universities that need support protecting their research and equipping their personnel with the proper tools and awareness. That's also why, in 2021, the government implemented the national security guidelines for research partnerships, which assess all academic research partnerships with any private partner or funder to help protect their work from national security concerns.

Most recently, in January this year, we announced new eligibility criteria for grants from our federal agencies and the Canada Foundation for Innovation, through the new policy on sensitive technology research and affiliations of concern. These new rules prohibit funding for research proposals when any of the researchers are affiliated with, or in receipt of funding or in-kind contributions from, a university research institute or laboratory on the list of named research organizations.

Reading the publicly released documents on the National Microbiology Laboratory in Winnipeg makes it clear that elements from a Chinese-sponsored recruitment program were involved. Your committee is better informed about this than anyone. It is well known that such programs are one way that China seeks to incentivize academics to participate in activities that exploit advancements in Canadian technologies. Through these programs, China’s goals are to improve its military and intelligence capabilities, as well as its economic competitiveness, all at the expense of Canada’s national interests.

The research security initiatives we've undertaken in recent years are aimed at stemming these sorts of foreign initiatives by arming Canadian research and researchers with risk awareness and tools for risk mitigation, and by removing their work from the cycle of foreign interference. Obviously, my colleagues from Public Safety and the director of CSIS can speak in more detail about these specific programs.

To conclude, the two individuals who were previously employed at the Winnipeg lab are currently under investigation by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. As the investigation is ongoing, you will understand, Mr. Chair and colleagues, that as the minister responsible for the RCMP, it wouldn't be appropriate for me to comment on any further specifics at this time.

That said, I have the impression that the questions might not be exclusively on those two individuals at the Winnipeg lab. If I'm right, I very much look forward to that conversation.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

Thank you, Minister. I guess we'll find out.

Mr. Cooper, the first six minutes are yours.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Minister, when was the Prime Minister first briefed about national security concerns surrounding the two scientists who turned out to be agents of Beijing at the Winnipeg lab: Dr. Qiu and Dr. Cheng?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

I don't have the specific information on when the Prime Minister was briefed on these matters.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Can you advise the committee when the former minister of public safety was first briefed?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

No, I can't. I wasn't the Minister of Public Safety at the time. I have no information on that either.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

You are the Minister of Public Safety now and you have ministerial responsibility. You answer not only for yourself but for your predecessors.

Can you undertake to provide those dates to the committee?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

I would be happy to ask the department to determine when my predecessor may have been made aware of this.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

What about the Prime Minister?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

I can't speak for the Prime Minister, but I am sure somebody has taken note of your question.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

What about the former minister of health?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

I don't speak for the Minister of Health.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

No, but can you undertake—

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

No. I don't undertake for the Minister of Health.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

On March 23, 2019, PHAC received a fact-finding report that said Dr. Qiu and Dr. Cheng violated multiple security and intellectual property protocols and were collaborating with the Beijing regime, including the People's Liberation Army.

Why did it take three and half months—until July 5, 2019—before they were finally marched out of the Winnipeg lab, which is a level 4 lab?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

I have taken note of the testimony of my colleague, the health minister, who was here a week ago. He can speak for the Public Health Agency of Canada. I can't.

Maybe the director has some information on that specific sequence for Mr. Cooper's question.

[David Vigneault, Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service]

Thank you, Minister.

In my testimony last week, I provided some key dates for the engagement between CSIS and PHAC that led to PHAC hiring a private company to do the investigation. I think that sequencing has been provided to the committee.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Minister, as of March 23, 2019, PHAC knew that these scientists were collaborating with the People's Liberation Army. This is a level 4 lab. It is supposed to be Canada's highest security lab. It deals with some of Canada's most sensitive biological secrets.

Again, why did it take three and a half months before they were finally marched out? Shouldn't they have been marched out the very next day?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Again, I appreciate the question, Mr. Cooper, but I'm not the employer of those particular individuals. You had the health minister and officials from PHAC here. I can't speak to the sequence of the employment relationship between the Public Health Agency and those particular individuals.