Canada-China Relations Committee on Oct. 25th, 2022

[Stephen R. Nagy]

I agree fully with Mr. Neve that human rights should be a critical part of how we engage in our trading relationships, including our trading relationship with China. However, I do think that we need to think broadly in terms of the broader region and the partners that we need to build within the region.

If we have Canadian-style human rights as the litmus test for economic engagement within the region, we will cut off critical partners that are going to be essential for building a resilient relationship with China and a relationship within the broader Indo-Pacific region that will pull China in a more positive direction over time.

We should continue to trade, but we should ensure that when we can, and at all possible junctures, we put human rights at the centre of that relationship. In thinking about shaping behaviour over the long term, we need to build partnerships, and then we need to be sensitive to the different heterogeneous natures of governments and their human rights approaches within the region.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Thank you.

We all agree that human rights should be at the centre of this. However, changing a way of doing business that has been established for many years and going out to find other trading partners is easier said than done. The strategies we want to put in place will certainly facilitate this.

I understand your point, but the fact remains that there is certainly going to be a major effect on the economy of Canada and other countries. According to a recent study, Taiwan produces 60% of the world's semiconductors and 90% of its microchips. This would make a Chinese invasion of Taiwan potentially devastating to the economies of many countries. Since Taiwan is one of the only countries that can supply us with these products, there seem to be no other options.

How then can we stabilize the situation as quickly as possible and find other options? How can we secure Canada's businesses and economy in this regard?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

Again we need a brief answer, please, sir.

[Stephen R. Nagy]

Mr. Cormier, you're very right. The hundreds of thousands of jobs that Canadians enjoy in automobile industries are directly related to the semiconductor chips that are based in Taiwan and built by Taiwan.

It means that moving forward, it will be critical for Canada to work with Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, the United States and perhaps Germany and other countries with these capabilities, to selectively diversify some of these supply chains to like-minded countries, and safe countries, quite frankly.

However, that shouldn't mean we don't engage in trade in other areas with China. I think the key term here is selective diversification away from China in supply chains that are critical, with semiconductors and pharmaceuticals as two primary examples.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

Thank you, Mr. Nagy.

We'll now go Mr. Bergeron for two and a half minutes.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister Joly emphasized that Canada's development strategy for the Indo-Pacific region would aim to complement the efforts of like-minded partners, including the Japanese vision for the region.

Mr. Nagy, why do you think Minister Joly bothered to specify that the Indo-Pacific strategy would include Japan's vision?

[Stephen R. Nagy]

Mademoiselle Joly was in Tokyo two weeks ago. We hosted her here at the Canadian embassy, and we had an excellent discussion. The Canadians and the Japanese put forward a six-point action plan for co-operation within the region. It focused on environmental co-operation, strengthening maritime domain awareness and supporting a rules-based structure. It focused on non-traditional security areas.

Japan is the most influential country within the region outside of Japan. It is an excellent partner in terms of taking on a nuanced approach in engaging with the Chinese relationship. At the same time, it's been a champion of building alternative partnerships within the region to build a critical mass of countries that will pull China in a different direction. They are doing this through tying infrastructure connectivity to development policies, and through building resilience into supply chains. I think these are potentially areas that Canada can co-operate in directly with Japan and other like-minded countries, again to build resilience in the relationship and pull China in a more positive direction over time.

This is the critical aspect that we're thinking about: how we, with like-minded countries like Japan, can pull China in a more positive direction over time .

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Like Mr. Chong, and following on from the questions he asked Mr. Hamilton, I will conclude with two questions.

What have been the consequences of Australia's actions in trying to respond to China's influence on its policy? What consequences have all these measures had on Australia?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

Thank you, Mr. Bergeron.

Now for our final two and a half minutes, we will go to you, Ms. McPherson.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Neve, I'm going to ask you a couple more questions on the human rights situation with regard to China.

One of the concerns I have is that as the Chinese government looks inward, as we have a chilling of the relationship, or I guess a continued chilling of the relationship, I'm quite worried that it will impact our ability to respond on Canadians unlawfully detained in China. How do we manage that? We want to see Huseyin Celil reunited with his family, but as we strengthen our approach to China, does that make it less likely that we can have success with that?

[Alex Neve]

I think you're highlighting a very troubling tension that has been the reality for quite a number of years and, if anything, is only deepening. I think it's one of the reasons that a number of civil society groups, and certainly Mr. Celil's family, have put out a variety of proposals for something like a special expert, a special envoy, a special representative. In that instance, it's been someone who would have a very dedicated role of advocating on his behalf.

This doesn't mean doing so in a very public way. In fact, I think people can imagine that this would be someone who works in very quiet diplomatic channels and has relationships they can build on, maybe through other kinds of dealings in the business world, etc.

I'd expand that out to the fact that Mr. Celil's case is perhaps the most wrenching and compelling right now, but we could quickly compile a long list of all the Canadian citizens and permanent residents over the last 20 years who have found themselves unjustly detained. These challenges around how to get access and who to talk to have always been there.

I think we really need some dedicated expertise to work that file.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

I would think, too, of the protection of those people within China, within Hong Kong, within some of the regions who are the human rights defenders, who want to continue to be doing their work as China looks inward. They obviously must be at great risk. How can we act preventively to ensure that those groups, those individuals who are working on human rights, working on pro-democracy movements, are not being persecuted and are given as much protection as we can give them?

[Alex Neve]

That couldn't be more important, I think.

Going back to one of my other recommendations about the need for a whole-of-government human rights strategy for Canada, that very point about really lifting up the role, the work done by frontline human rights defenders right across the country.... There are many of them, and they are incredibly vulnerable. Even in the face of crackdowns, they continue with their work, but ensuring that we're doing everything we can to protect that space should be central to that strategy.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

Thank you very much.

That brings to conclusion a fascinating panel, and we thank you very much, Mr. Neve and Mr. Nagy.

Mr. Hamilton, I'm told that we do have your speaking notes. They are off to translation and will be in the hands of our members by tomorrow afternoon. When you can, we would appreciate your transmitting the answers to the questions that were posed to you. The clerk says she will bake you a cake or something if you could get them to her tomorrow, but early the next day as well would be fine, because we have two very good analysts here who are going to try to put together all of the details that we've heard over the last couple of meetings.

Go ahead, Mr. Chong.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Could I also ask you, Mr. Chair, to ensure that the answers in response to the questions I posed are distributed to all members of the committee when they become available to you? Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

Absolutely, and they will be translated as well.

Thank you again.

We will now take a break and then go into some committee business.

[Proceedings continue in camera]