Evidence of meeting #5 for Canada-China Relations in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was relationship.
A video is available from Parliament.
7:25 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ken Hardie
Mr. Fragiskatos, you're unfortunately out of time.
We will finish the round. We will take the time necessary.
Mr. Bergeron, you have two and a half minutes, sir.
7:25 p.m.
Bloc
Stéphane Bergeron Bloc Montarville, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Considering everything we've heard today, I almost feel like asking Mr. Manthorpe how the monarchy reassures him about the state of democracy in Canada, but I'll refrain.
During her testimony on April 19, 2021, Carolyn Bartholomew, chair of the United States-China Economic and Security Review Commission, told the committee that state media representatives from the People's Republic of China in the United States are required to register with the U.S. Department of Justice under the Foreign Agents Registration Act.
Do you believe it would be appropriate for Canada to have such legislation and, if so, how effective would it be?
7:25 p.m.
Former Foreign Correspondent and Author of Claws of the Panda, As an Individual
I think it would be a very important step. It's important to know who is doing what in our country. Having a registration of foreign agents is probably the primary step, and then setting out boundaries for what those agents can and can't do in our country.
Yes, I think a registry is a necessary first step.
7:25 p.m.
Bloc
Stéphane Bergeron Bloc Montarville, QC
Mr. Youde, how does Taiwan's non-participation in the World Health Organization affect global efforts to prevent the occurrence of new pandemics or efforts to combat potential pandemics?
7:30 p.m.
Dean of the College of Arts, Humanities, and Social Sciences, University of Minnesota Duluth, As an Individual
Taiwan's inclusion would be incredibly important.
During the SARS pandemic, Taiwan had the second-highest number of cases. The fact that we had to go through the People's Republic of China government in order to have any sort of engagement between the Taiwanese government and the World Health Organization caused a huge delay.
Similarly, when we're looking at COVID-19.... Taiwan was incredibly blessed to have had a vice-president who was an epidemiologist. That is the sort of expertise and knowledge that would be incredibly important for helping to stop the spread and look at the sorts of efforts that might be effective at reducing the spread of an infectious disease.
It is definitely a challenge. Unfortunately, everything has to go through the People's Republic of China right now. They are understandably incredibly reluctant to do so, to the point where they have even blocked Taiwan from participating in the annual World Health Assembly, which takes place every May in Geneva and is like a Parliament for global health.
Having these sorts of insights from Taiwan—having all parts of the globe represented—is going to be incredibly important if we're going to be able to effectively stop the next pandemic.
7:30 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ken Hardie
Thank you, Mr. Youde.
We'll now go to Ms. McPherson for the final two and a half minutes.
7:30 p.m.
NDP
Heather McPherson NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB
Thank you, Mr. Youde. I agree with you on that last comment you made. I also think it's very important that Taiwan be able to share their expertise on things, such as the sustainable development goals and a range of different things that are so important and that Taiwan has taken leadership on.
I'm concerned. We are hearing testimony today that Canada needs to, diplomatically, be more stern. “Put our elbows up”, I think, was one of the quotes I heard. On the other hand, I'm hearing you, Mr. Youde, talk about the need for China to be at the table because of those major gaps that would be exposed if they weren't there.
I'd love to finish by getting some more information from you. First of all, what are those gaps? How do we ensure that we are balancing them? What does that balance look like between stern diplomacy and the need to have China at the table as we talk about health?
Finally, as we see a China that is looking more inward, how trustworthy is the information that are we receiving from China, as well?
That's a lot. Good luck.
7:30 p.m.
Dean of the College of Arts, Humanities, and Social Sciences, University of Minnesota Duluth, As an Individual
Oh, my goodness. It's a lot to go through in two and a half minutes.
To take the second point first, this is a classic case of “trust, but verify”. This is why we need to have multiple sets of eyes involved. It is important to get the information that is coming from official sources. It's also important to make sure that we can triangulate that information, that we can trust it and that we can operate effectively on it.
The inward focus that the Chinese government is engaging in now is not going to keep them safe in terms of future pandemics. That's just the reality of the movement of goods and people across borders.
Historically, when we look at the outbreaks of things such as COVID, SARS and some of the influenza outbreaks we've had, they came from China and that region. That's a quirk of geography in many respects, but it also means that it's all the more important that we have those opportunities to get that sort of information and to conduct that surveillance. It's not because we're trying to spy or do anything nefarious, but because if we know when outbreaks are happening, if we know how that spread is starting to begin and see those patterns, we can address the concerns more effectively and more quickly and we can get the World Health Organization and the other organizations involved.
I don't know that it's so much a choice between being stern and bringing them to the table. It is, as you point out, more about how to strike that balance. We need to have a stern measure, but it can't be so stern that it completely closes China off. That would put all of us at further risk.
7:30 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ken Hardie
With that, we're at the end of our first panel. What a fascinating one it was.
Mr. Youde and Mr. Manthorpe, we were delighted to have you here.
I know the second panel is gong to be wonderful as well. I'm sure that if you ask nicely, you can stay on and listen in, if you wish.
Otherwise, this is being televised somewhere, is it not, Nancy?
7:30 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ken Hardie
Yes, we're being televised. There you go. If you can find that, you're still in business.
We will take a brief break.
We're going to do another sound check with Mr. Hamilton, and then, hopefully, we'll be back in a few minutes with the second panel.
Thank you.
7:40 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ken Hardie
We're ready to start our second hour.
Mr. Hamilton, we are still challenged to provide the interpreters with a clear enough audio signal to provide the interpretation in French that we require as part of our system here. We will try a question—Mr. Chong will be first—but if the audio quality isn't up to standard, we will have to impose on you to perhaps provide us with written answers. We'll keep you here, though, to be available for questions, if that's okay.
With that, joining us on our second panel—we hope—is Clive Hamilton, a professor of public ethics at Charles Sturt University's Canberra campus.
Online, we have Stephen Nagy, senior associate professor at International Christian University and senior research fellow at the Macdonald-Laurier Institute.
Joining us in person tonight is Alex Neve, a senior fellow at the Graduate School of Public and International Affairs at the University of Ottawa.
Mr. Hamilton, let's see if you can give us a statement. If not, we do have it printed, so we won't lose that piece if the audio quality isn't good.
We will start the clock at five minutes, but I may have to interrupt.
7:40 p.m.
Professor of Public Ethics, Charles Sturt University, Canberra Campus, As an Individual
Thank you, Chair.
My apologies for [Technical difficulty—Editor] technical troubles. It's a pleasure to appear before the committee [Technical difficulty—Editor]
7:40 p.m.
Liberal
Rob Oliphant Liberal Don Valley West, ON
Mr. Chair, I wonder if he could try turning his camera off to see if there's a possibility that we could hear him. There could be a bandwidth issue in transmission from Australia.
Sometimes that helps.
7:40 p.m.
Professor of Public Ethics, Charles Sturt University, Canberra Campus, As an Individual
I have turned the camera off.
Is that any better, Chair?
7:40 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ken Hardie
No, I'm afraid it's not better, sir. You can turn your camera back on so that we can see you.
As I said, we have your statement printed out, so that is available to us. I will advise the members to ask questions, but if we could impose on you to provide us written answers, that would be very—
7:40 p.m.
Liberal
Rob Oliphant Liberal Don Valley West, ON
On a point of order, Mr. Chair, have we received the statement as members?
7:40 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ken Hardie
I'm told that we did. Did we not receive...?
Oh. We have received the English copy.
7:40 p.m.
Liberal
Rob Oliphant Liberal Don Valley West, ON
When it has been translated, can I ask that it be circulated to all members and be entered as evidence into our study?
7:40 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ken Hardie
Yes.
We will make sure that the written answers we receive will be translated and passed on appropriately.
That said, though, it's unfortunate, because in our committee business we will also be offering some instructions to our analysts for our report. We'll have to make the best of it, I suppose.
With that, Mr. Nagy, we will go to you for an opening statement. You have five minutes or less, please, sir.
October 25th, 2022 / 7:40 p.m.
Stephen R. Nagy Senior Associate Professor, International Christian University and Senior Research Fellow, MacDonald Laurier Institute, As an Individual
Thank you very much for the opportunity to share my views.
Just to give you a bit of background, I'm based in Tokyo. I've lived in Tokyo and I see China relations and Canada-China relations from Tokyo, but I've also spent five years in Hong Kong as well.
I'd like to start with a statement, and I think it's really important. The cardinal rule of diplomacy is never to make binary choices. I think this is really critical as we discuss Canada-China relations and how we move forward.
In 2021, according to a Statistics Canada report, all our agricultural product trade went up with China. That agricultural relationship and the export of other raw materials to China continues to deepen despite record unfavourable ratings. I think this is really important. It places us in a position of thinking about what the economic benefits are of a relationship with China and the realities of the politics.
Second, I think we have many challenges globally and regionally that we need to be thinking about in terms of our relations with China. Whether we're thinking about non-traditional security issues such as transnational diseases or whether we're thinking about environmental problems, China will be part of that solution. As a result, we need to find and build bridges.
Notwithstanding, I would like to focus on three specific areas that I think are really critical to thinking about Canada-China relations.
The first thing is China's broad intentions to weaken international institutions, redefine how we understand democracy, redefine how we understand human rights and redefine how we think about rule of law.
The second thing, I think importantly, is to look at the political influence campaigns within Canada that particularly target ethnic Chinese Canadians and how they influence our democracy and create challenges in terms of creating coherent, rational and fact-based policy to build a productive yet awkward coexistence with China.
Third, I think it is real important to clearly understand China's that intentions within the Indo-Pacific region are to reorganize the regional security architecture so that like-minded states like Japan, South Korea and Australia defer to Beijing's wishes before they consider their own priorities within the region.
With that, I think Canada has a deep interest in working with like-minded countries, whether it's the United States, Japan, Australia or South Korea, in strengthening collaboration on building a rules-based order, and that means working within the United Nations, working within the International Monetary Fund and working within the World Health Organization to ensure we have a rules-based, transparent process to protect this international system and protect middle powers, such as Canada, from a might-is-right approach to foreign policy.
On my second point, in terms of political influence campaigns within Canada—and Canada's not the only victim of this, of course; there are Australia and others as well—it's really critical that we not only protect our Chinese-Canadian citizens but also ensure that our Canadian businesses, as they interact with China, are thinking about Canadian interests. This means increasing transparency with regard to Chinese-language media, understanding who the owners are of those Chinese-language media resources and understanding and creating much more Chinese literacy in the ethnic Chinese community within Canada and in the Canadian community in general about the kinds of operations that the United Front Work Department is deploying in Canada to shape our political choices and shape our relations with China.
The third area that I think is really important is to understand the importance of a stronger, forward-leaning presence in the Indo-Pacific region that does support a rules-based order. About $5.5 trillion U.S. of trade goes through the South China Sea, the East China Sea and in and around Taiwan. Of that, about $25 billion of Canadian trade is moving in and out of the region. Any kind of friction within the region, a cross-strait contingency in which China pursues a reunification, will fundamentally affect both the regional economy and Canadian economic interests within the region.
It's critically important that we work with like-minded partners, such as Japan, the United States, South Korea and Australia, to engage in what we call “transit operations”, ensuring that maritime domain awareness is robust and identifies the challenges that the Chinese are making in terms of grey zone operations, lawfare operations, and of course the use of force.
It's critical that Canada continues to engage with China through key lines of co-operation, such as environmental co-operation, trade, thinking about non-traditional security co-operation on transnational diseases, piracy and illegal fishing, but at the same time we need to draw strong lines and encourage transparency at home and in our bilateral relations.
We need to increase the literacy of Canadians and Canadian politicians about what's happening with regard to China-Canadian relations and the broader Indo-Pacific region.