Evidence of meeting #5 for Canada-China Relations in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was relationship.
A video is available from Parliament.
7:10 p.m.
Former Foreign Correspondent and Author of Claws of the Panda, As an Individual
You are quite right: We shouldn't. Our situation is that almost all the Chinese-language media in Canada are now under the control of the Chinese Communist Party. We need to find a way of doing something about it.
7:10 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ken Hardie
Thank you, Mr. Bergeron.
Now we'll go to Ms. McPherson for six minutes or less.
7:10 p.m.
NDP
Heather McPherson NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I would like to thank our witnesses today. This has been frightening, of course, but also very informative. Thank you for your testimony so far.
Mr. Manthorpe, we understand that we do need to have a trading relationship with China. I think what we saw with Xi Jinping and his consolidation of power, the purging of rivals from within the party, is that this is heading in the wrong direction, clearly. However, knowing that we do have to have that relationship, what should the diplomacy look like?
It was unfortunate, but we did not have a diplomat in China for the past nine months of the last year because Ambassador Barton left the position in what I would say are probably pretty stinky circumstances when he went to work with Rio Tinto.
What should our diplomacy look like? What should Canadian diplomacy with China look like right now?
7:10 p.m.
Former Foreign Correspondent and Author of Claws of the Panda, As an Individual
I'm not a diplomat, although I have many friends who are diplomats. I think it needs to be pretty stern. I think it needs to recognize that rebuilding a working relationship with Beijing, even a minimalist working relationship with Beijing, is going to take a lot of time and a lot of trust building. In the present situation, every diplomat and every businessperson who is in China is under threat of being kidnapped if the relationship goes off the rails again. I think we need to be just very stern, very clear that our expectations are pretty minimalist at this point. We need a lot of reassurance from Beijing before there can be anything much in terms of a working relationship.
It's a tough, tough post for any diplomat at the moment. I don't envy the person. However, it's a moment where we have to keep our elbows out and be tough about it. It is not a relationship that's going to be rebuilt very easily, certainly not one that the Canadian people will follow and acknowledge. I think that perhaps this is a moment when diplomats and politicians need to listen more to the feelings of the Canadian people on the relationship with the Chinese Communist Party.
7:10 p.m.
NDP
Heather McPherson NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB
Do you think Canada has been tough to date? Do you think that is a reasonable expectation from our diplomatic teams?
7:15 p.m.
Former Foreign Correspondent and Author of Claws of the Panda, As an Individual
I think there's been a lot of confusion in the last three or four years since Meng Wanzhou was detained. There's been a lot of confusion about how to respond. Governments, business and academia have suddenly found that what they thought was a solid relationship is not, and they've been struggling to find how to deal with it. I know diplomats and business people who have traditionally had solid relationships with Beijing who have gone there to try to ease the situation and have come away totally perplexed at finding all the doors closed to them.
In the last few weeks, actually, I've begun to feel that the decision-makers in Ottawa and in business and in academia have begun to get a grip on the reality at the moment. I think probably events with the party congress, the worsening relationship between Beijing and the United States and the threats over Taiwan in parallel with what's happening between Russia and Ukraine have opened a lot of people's eyes to the difficulties of the situation we face at the moment.
7:15 p.m.
NDP
Heather McPherson NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB
I sit on the foreign affairs committee, and we are currently looking at some forced-labour legislation, some slave-labour legislation that I hope will be strong, that will be equal to what we are seeing coming out of other countries like Germany and the EU and other democracies.
What do you think the impacts of our having that legislation and enforcing that legislation, which we have been woefully poor at doing in the past, will be on our relationship with China?
7:15 p.m.
Former Foreign Correspondent and Author of Claws of the Panda, As an Individual
They won't like it, but here we are. At the moment we are going through all sorts of internal discussions about slavery 200 years ago, and here we are going to our big box stores and buying stuff that is made by slave labour today.
I applaud the legislation. It should be enforced and enforced rigorously. There's absolutely no justification whatsoever, no conceivable justification, for Canadians to be offered stuff in Canadian stores that is made by slave labour. It must be enforced rigorously. If Beijing doesn't like it, then tough.
7:15 p.m.
NDP
Heather McPherson NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB
I have a question for Mr. Youde, but I'll save it for the next round. Thank you very much.
7:15 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ken Hardie
Thank you.
We'll now go to Mr. Chong for five minutes or less.
Did I get that wrong? Oh, it's Mr. Seeback. Sure, we can go to Mr. Seeback.
October 25th, 2022 / 7:15 p.m.
Conservative
Kyle Seeback Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON
That's great. Thank you for that, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Manthorpe, in your comments you said the Meng Wanzhou affair shows that they care more about one high-level party aristocrat than about the entire relationship with Canada. Is this the new norm in relations with China? Was this a message to Canada and other countries? Was it potentially exacerbated by the SNC-Lavalin matter, in which it appeared that there was some attempt to interfere in a prosecution through a deferred prosecution agreement? Was that an exacerbating factor, or do you think this is just the new norm of how China is going to do business with Canada and other countries?
7:15 p.m.
Former Foreign Correspondent and Author of Claws of the Panda, As an Individual
I think it's basically the new norm. I think it's probably more than likely that there was some hope that a political accommodation could be made. Whether it referred specifically to the Lavalin affair, I just don't know.
I think you can look back. There was an earlier incident in which a spy for the PRC was detained here on a warrant from the U.S. and decided not to go through the process, and instead decided that he'd rather be extradited to the U.S. and start a new life there.
We all know—and it's very clear from the history—that there is always a political element at the end of an extradition process here. I have no doubt that Ms. Meng and her lawyers had that in mind, but I would be loath to tie it particularly to the Lavalin affair. I don't know, but I think there were plenty of other reasons for them to think there could be a political accommodation at the end.
7:20 p.m.
Conservative
Kyle Seeback Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON
When you talked about trade, you said that we can't have normal trade relations. How should Canada approach trade relations? I know that it has to be transactional, but is there any more depth or can you put a little more flesh on that?
7:20 p.m.
Former Foreign Correspondent and Author of Claws of the Panda, As an Individual
Well, it's an interesting one. I won't take up your time, but very quickly, after the sanctions on the export of Canadian pork, I was asked to go on a radio station in Saskatchewan.
I did a bit of research. They were worried in Saskatchewan because, they said, China is the largest market for Canadian pork, which in weight is quite true, but in value, it's Japan. I think you can find many other instances in which the importance of our exports to China is actually overstated. For example, The Economist did a report last year that ranked all countries by the importance to them of their exports to China. Canada was 47th on that list.
By and large, our exports to China are not nearly as important as they tend to be portrayed, so I think we can keep it to a transactional minimalist business. If they want to buy our wheat, our grains or our meat, then fine, here's the contract—sign on the dotted line—but I don't think we need to get more involved than that.
7:20 p.m.
Conservative
Kyle Seeback Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON
Yes, and let's absolutely not have an FTA. I know that you wrote an article about this in 2017, I believe. I assume your position hasn't changed.
7:20 p.m.
Former Foreign Correspondent and Author of Claws of the Panda, As an Individual
No. In fact, it's intensified.
7:20 p.m.
Conservative
Kyle Seeback Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON
You mentioned that the United Front is intimidating Chinese Canadians. You've certainly talked about the influence it has over Chinese-language Canadian media. Do you have anything more you would add? What things should we put in place to try to confront or eliminate this?
7:20 p.m.
Former Foreign Correspondent and Author of Claws of the Panda, As an Individual
I'll just say very quickly that I think you're going to hear from Alex Neve, the former head of Amnesty International, who I think is going to give evidence. He's a man who has been through all of these intrusions and has verified many of them. I would defer to him on that question. He's very much the expert on the breadth and depth of those intrusions.
7:20 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ken Hardie
There's time for a very short question.
Are you finished? Thank you, Mr. Seeback.
We'll go to Mr. Fragiskatos for five minutes or less.
7:20 p.m.
Liberal
Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Professor Youde, if I could begin with you, I take your points on middle powers and what they could potentially do on this question of global health policy. I think the pandemic has made very real the need to engage internationally with like-minded allies and even towards countries where we don't share values, but certainly, health cuts across and points to the need for any co-operation.
With respect to China, President Xi, as this past weekend has made even more clear, is looking inward and not outward. What are the options on the table for middle powers that want to engage on this question of global health policy but look to China, where I don't think they see a partner? You can't talk to someone who won't talk back to you and have a meaningful conversation with you.
Are there creative ways around that? Are there ways that middle powers can get around that? I think you implied that there are possibilities, but I wonder if you could expand on that idea.
7:20 p.m.
Dean of the College of Arts, Humanities, and Social Sciences, University of Minnesota Duluth, As an Individual
Thanks for the question.
It is a difficult moment to try to engage in this sort of dialogue, for exactly the reason you pointed out: President Xi has shown an inclination toward looking inward.
One of the things that I think can be done is to make the overtures, to at least show that there is this good-faith effort to try to engage, if for no other reason than the possibility of being able to name and shame. That's one of the rare powers the WHO really has: to try to name and shame countries that aren't in compliance.
Extending that effort I think can be important, as well as working with some of the countries, particularly some of the countries that have even stronger relationships with China, and particularly the regional partners and the regional neighbours. They may be able to have a degree of influence that a Canada or an Australia or other countries may not be able to have. That could be another opportunity.
I think we also need to recognize that there could be some opportunities—and we have seen some opportunities on a scattershot level—for scientific diplomacy. Of course, that gets complicated, because when information that the Chinese government hasn't wanted to get out does get out, there has been retribution that has been exactly against those individuals and those organizations.
There's no panacea, unfortunately. There's no easy way to do it, but continued efforts are going to be crucial in making those sorts of inroads.
7:25 p.m.
Liberal
Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON
Thank you very much.
I'll go to Mr. Manthorpe with the final question.
Sir, you've written at great length on the rise of right-wing nationalism, and populism. You said the following in a relatively recent op-ed:
...even though Canada has not been struck as hard or wounded so dangerously as some other democracies, there are plenty of warning signs for our political and pundit class[es] to take seriously.
Again, that's in reference to right-wing nationalism and populism.
What are the implications of that observation, sir, for Canadian foreign policy, specifically relating to the question of Canada-China relations?
7:25 p.m.
Former Foreign Correspondent and Author of Claws of the Panda, As an Individual
I haven't thought about it strictly in those terms. I think you're referring to a book I wrote after Claws of the Panda, which is called Restoring Democracy. I'm actually a little more concerned now about the state and future of democracy in Canada than I was when I wrote that book two years ago. I think we need to examine it very thoroughly.
If we find ourselves gripped by right-wing nationalism, of course it will affect our foreign policy as well. I don't see it being quite as dangerous here as it is in the United States and some parts of Europe, such as Hungary and, under certain circumstances, Poland. However, it's something we need to recognize. Our democracy needs constant tending. I think we've been too lackadaisical over the last 20 or 30 years, and we need to sit down and recognize....
After the COVID pandemic, which exposed so many good things as well as weaknesses, would probably be a good moment to sit down and think about where Canadian democracy goes from here.