Canada-China Relations Committee on Nov. 1st, 2022

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

Thank you very much.

We have time for one more round of five minutes each for the Conservatives and the Liberals and two and a half minutes each for the Bloc and the NDP.

Mr. Kmiec, go ahead for five minutes.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

You spoke about people-to-people relationships. Are you aware of any cases where visitors coming to Canada from Taiwan are being intimidated or persecuted by representatives of the PRC, agents of the PRC or individuals working for the United Front Work Department?

[Dr. Harry Ho-jen Tseng]

Thank you, sir.

From the information I have access to, we still don't have any Taiwanese nationals or Taiwanese Canadians living in Canada being intimidated by Chinese diplomats or Chinese nationals working in Canada, but we hear a lot about it. It's been reported that people from Hong Kong have been under that kind of threat a lot. There is a target. The people they want to nail down from China are the dissidents. The Chinese Communist Party would not be happy about what they've been doing because it's seen as a threat.

Even though Taiwanese nationals in Canada have not faced this kind of intimidation, just a few years ago there were Taiwanese nationals advocating for some ideas of democracy. One man in Taiwan was using his computer as a platform to spread the idea of democracy, but when he travelled to China, he was taken into custody and was sentenced to five years. His name is Lee Ming-che, and he was released only about a little more than a year ago.

It is not happening in Canada. If it was, I would certainly share with our friends in Parliament to let you know.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

Thank you.

I'm going to ask you, then, about the so-called police stations. You've probably heard these stories. I believe it's Fujian province that calls them “service stations”.

Does your government allow the operation of such police service stations on your territory?

[Dr. Harry Ho-jen Tseng]

It's unheard of and totally out of the question for this kind of service station. It's actually in the name of an association, but it's semi-official because it carries some functions that only a government branch can do. In Taiwan, it's totally impossible for this kind of police station or service station to be set up, especially by Chinese nationals.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

How would your government react if you found such police stations operating on your territory? What would your recommendation be to the Government of Canada?

[Dr. Harry Ho-jen Tseng]

As far as I know, these police or service stations have existed in 24 countries—52 stations in 24 countries—and none of them were found in Taiwan. With the way we do things, I think we will be very vigilant, if I may put it that way.

The reason we've fought the pandemic in a very efficient way is that we have been vigilant from day one, and we have to be vigilant all the time for actions done under camouflage. It would be put under the name of some kind of association or society, something like that, so we have to pay attention to actions that do not conform to our legal system.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

Mr. Kmiec, I'm sorry, but you are out of time. Thank you.

Now we'll go to Mr. Dubourg for five minutes.

[Emmanuel Dubourg, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

It's my turn to welcome our witnesses from the Taipei Economic and Cultural Office in Canada.

Mr. Tseng, I was so pleased to hear your introductory speech, especially at the end, because in your conclusion you talked a lot about peace. You said, “peaceful relations across the Taiwan Strait” and “peaceful means on the basis of international law” and so on. Thank you for that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

Mr. Dubourg, I'm sorry, but I have to interrupt you briefly. It doesn't sound like the microphone on your headset is the one that's connected to your feed.

[Emmanuel Dubourg, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Is it okay right now?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

Now it's better, I think. Thank you.

[Emmanuel Dubourg, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

As I was saying, Mr. Tseng, I was so pleased to read your statement, especially your conclusion, because you talk a lot about “peaceful means on the basis of international law”, “peaceful relations across the Taiwan Strait” and so on. Thank you for that.

In your speech, you also talked about the CCP's 20th party congress. You said that the report delivered on October 16 “has sent a chilling message“ to all of us in the democratic camp. Would you elaborate on that, please?

[Dr. Harry Ho-jen Tseng]

In my opening remarks, I elaborated on what I meant by “chilling message to all of us in the like-minded group”. As I pointed out, the economic message coming out of the 20th party congress is not very rosy at all, and I have given you the reasons I said that. It's because in the political report, the zero-COVID policy has been reaffirmed, and there is no hope of loosening control on the Internet platforms. It's all those things.

I am looking at it only from the economic perspective, but I also mentioned, when answering one of the questions, that the security concern out of this 20th party congress is something we need to pay close attention to, because a lot of the responses—including from the Secretary of State of the United States, Mr. Antony Blinken—say that the Chinese threat to Taiwan has been moved forward in terms of its timeline.

We are trying to alert people here in Canada as well as people in the like-minded countries that we shouldn't take the message of the 20th party congress lightly. We need to prepare so that we are not harmed in the near future.

[Emmanuel Dubourg, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Thank you so much.

In your statement, in the third paragraph, you say that the CCP has “instead stressed equality over prosperity” and that by doing so, “China is accelerating its self-initiated decoupling”. At the end, you say Canada should “beware of what awaits in the future”.

Do you have specific problems or threats in mind that you refer to that we should beware of?

[Dr. Harry Ho-jen Tseng]

Obviously China is a very important market for Canada. It is the third-biggest market, lagging behind the U.S. and the EU, so I think what is happening in China, especially in the Chinese economy, is something of great concern for you.

I said they stress equality over prosperity, but I am only describing the message from the 20th party congress, where Mr. Xi emphasized that common prosperity is the utmost objective of their government policy. Common prosperity does not talk only about taxing people's income and redistributing wealth to individuals. Even if in China this is done by taxation, I must say that in a political system that emphasizes political control so much and has no transparency—no checks and balances—the system could only come to a situation where this redistribution of wealth becomes a source of corruption.

It happened when Xi Jinping came to power 10 years ago. He actually used the first 10 years to purge a lot of political enemies by using a slogan of anti-corruption. Now they're closing up their economy and trying to redistribute the wealth of the people, and I don't think it's going to make anyone feel good, including their own people.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

Thank you, Mr. Tseng and Mr. Dubourg.

Now for two and a half minutes, we have Mr. Bergeron.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I would like to go back to the exchange we had earlier. You rightly pointed out that I had asked you a hypothetical question. Let's now get out of the hypothetical sphere and get to the facts.

Have there been several ministerial visits to Taiwan from western countries in recent years? If the answer is yes, which countries were involved?

[Dr. Harry Ho-jen Tseng]

Thank you, sir.

There are actually not many ministerial visits to Taiwan. Most remarkably, with regard to visits by ministers from the United States, the last was in the year 2020. Their Secretary of Health visited Taiwan. There are a lot of visits to Taiwan by ministers or even prime ministers who have just stepped down from their offices, but when we talk about ministerial meetings, these are not happening very often in Taiwan. That is true. Also, it is not that Canada is the only country not sending its ministers to Taiwan. That should be made clear.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Very well.

On August 3, the G7 foreign ministers issued a statement on maintaining peace and stability in the Taiwan Strait. The statement called on the People's Republic of China to resolve cross-strait disputes through peaceful means. It stated:

There is no change in the respective one-China policies... and basic positions on Taiwan of the G7 members.

How useful does this kind of statement appear to you?

[Dr. Harry Ho-jen Tseng]

The statement by the G7 countries carries a lot of weight. As a matter of fact, this was perhaps the first time that the peace, security and stability of the Taiwan Strait was included in a G7 joint statement. In fact, it appeared for the first time last year, in 2021. That was a foreign ministers meeting and the G7 summit meeting in London.

Since this was first mentioned, it has stayed in the statements. It has become part of the G7's position, and we appreciate that very much. We hope this message will always be reiterated whenever there is a G7 meeting, because the fact is that peace and stability in the Taiwan Strait continue to be important.

We would welcome the G7's touching on this position every time they meet.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

Thank you, Mr. Tseng and Mr. Bergeron.

Now for our final two and a half minutes, we have Ms. McPherson.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank our guests today. This has been wonderful. Thank you, Mr. Tseng.

We've talked about diplomacy. We've talked about trade. We've talked about what Canada can do more of, what Canada has done and security. We are finding ourselves in a very changing world. What is happening in Ukraine has implications for Taiwan. What has happened with COVID as we come out of the COVID pandemic has implications for how China is responding and the reality of what this looks like on the ground.

Knowing that I have the last two and a half minutes, I wonder if I could just pass it back to you, Mr Tseng, and ask if there is anything else you'd like to tell this committee, or anything else you would like to get into Hansard and onto the record in the final few moments.

[Dr. Harry Ho-jen Tseng]

Thank you so much. Those are very kind words.

I appreciate this opportunity to appear before this special committee. I know this committee is set up for a special purpose. The fact that you invited me to be one of the witnesses tells me how much concern you have and the importance you attach to relations between Canada and Taiwan. I really hope that the story I shared with you tonight is that things are going on and situations are evolving.

I look forward to future opportunities to engage with every single member—all of you who are here and who are participating online. I honestly think this is a historical juncture. Like-minded countries should work with each other so we can come back with a kind of synergy, because the challenge facing us now is different from before.

Not many people appreciate that the assertive foreign policies of China are going to change a lot of what we have experienced in the past, say, five or 10 years, but this is going to be the case. For example, in Taiwan, we think that over the next five years under Xi Jinping's watch—his third term—he'll probably be pressing further on Taiwan in ways unseen before.

The large exercise in the wake of Nancy Pelosi's visit may come back. As a matter of fact, that exercise, even though it was not declared, is still there. Every day we have dozens of sorties, sometimes close to 100, coming to our ADIZ, the air defence identification zone, intimidating Taiwan. They're flying across the median line of the Taiwan Strait, an imaginary median line, and intimidating Taiwan on a daily basis.

I hope this kind of situation will be paid attention to by our Canadian friends, because it won't stop at Taiwan. Taiwan is not a Chinese domestic issue; Taiwan is an international issue. When it comes to Taiwan, we all have to suffer.

I'm not even mentioning Taiwan's chipmaking capacity. We provide most of the chips to important industries in the world. I'm not even talking about that. Of course, that is a very important part, but the fact is that if Taiwan falls, democracy falls, and that will be the ultimate concern of all of us.