Canada-China Relations Committee on Nov. 1st, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

We did give a fair bit of latitude to Mr. Chong, so Mr. Tseng, if you would like to answer that fairly briefly, that would be fine.

[Dr. Harry Ho-jen Tseng]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Disinformation is something we are encountering on a daily basis. Disinformation in Taiwan mostly comes from China. It's becoming so easy for disinformation to spread because of social media, and everyone has a cellphone now.

We've developed a strategy to counterbalance the negative effect of disinformation. It's a very comprehensive way to tackle it. I don't think I have enough time, but we bring in the government spokesman system, as well as our intelligence-gathering systems, to discern what fake news is going on in social media in real time. If you let fake news go viral for 10 minutes, it's already too late. We've learned from our experiences.

This is the area that we think we can share with you and with countries in the EU, for example, in the—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

Thank you, Mr. Tseng. We will have time. There's extra questioning time for all committee members this evening. That sounds like a fascinating area that you may wish to spend a little more time on as we proceed.

Mr. Bergeron, I'll say you have six minutes or less, but if you have a good question, we'll let you have a little extra time too.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I have no doubt that I will have questions that my colleagues will find fascinating.

First, thank you very much for being with us tonight. We are very grateful to you. I think that, so far, you have been able to sense from my colleagues' comments how much solidarity we feel with Taiwan and its people.

In an article published in The Globe and Mail on October 25, you said that part of your job as Taiwan's representative at the Taipei Economic and Cultural Office in Canada is to prevent war by convincing western countries to raise the costs inflicted on the People's Republic of China if it tries to take the island. You added that if we want to help Taiwan, we need to talk less and act more.

As an introduction to my question, I would like to tell you about some exchanges I had with Ukrainians a few days before the February invasion. At that time, even people in Ukraine considered an attack from Russia to be absolutely unlikely, believing that the cost for it would be too high. We can see that this is indeed the case. Nevertheless, this did not prevent Vladimir Putin from invading Ukraine. Indeed, what appears to us to be reasonable is not necessarily logical to an individual like Vladimir Putin.

Similarly, how high could the price be to prevent an individual like the president of the People's Republic of China, Xi Jinping, from doing exactly the same thing?

When you ask us to talk less and act more, what do you expect from Canada?

[Dr. Harry Ho-jen Tseng]

You are right. It is really very difficult to predict what a dictator would do. It's very unpredictable, the mindset of a dictator. It applies to Mr. Putin. It looks like China is becoming more and more under one man's control as a result of the 20th party congress. It would be very difficult to predict what Xi Jinping is going to do.

My job here is not to let a war happen, as you said. That's very true. However, for decision-makers in Taiwan, we have to prepare for that worst kind of scenario. So it is not a question of if, but of when. It was written in their political report not only this time, but also five years ago at their 19th party congress, that they would like to have reunification with Taiwan and would consider that as the rejuvenation of a great Chinese nation. This is already in their road map, and it is not a question of if; it's only a question of when, so we need to get prepared in Taiwan.

As to how we would like Canada to help Taiwan, we are pragmatic people and know where your policy stands now. The three points I mentioned in the concluding part of my remarks are what we are asking of you. We know that we cannot expect you to do what the U.S. is doing with us, but I think if you take some time to look at the three points in the conclusion of my opening remarks, I think those things are pretty much within your current policy.

When I say less talk and more action, I hope that is not mistaken by our friends here. I don't mean to criticize the Canadian government, but I think there is more that can be done. When I say less talk and more action, I'm actually referring to trade, to the FIPA. We have been talking a lot about the FIPA. We probably need to sit down and really talk about the nitty-gritty, the issues and negotiations and the give and take, as with any serious trade negotiation. That's what I'm talking about. I'm not referring to security issues in saying that.

However, there is one thing that Canada is doing a lot of. At least once a year, your naval ships go on free passage exercises, including high seas passage of the Taiwan Strait. Given the high tensions between China and Taiwan right now, I think it would be very welcome if you could continue to do those free passages of the high seas there. If you could increase the number of times you do that kind of naval exercise, it would be very much appreciated by our side because it would mean that you are demonstrating your commitment to keeping peace and stability in this part of the world.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

According to The Economist Intelligence Unit's democracy index, Taiwan ranks eighth in the list of democracies, four places ahead of Canada.

During her recent speech in Washington, the Deputy Prime Minister insisted, according to CBC, that we should stop supporting autocracies such as Russia and China and focus on trade and investment in our democratic allies' countries.

As it happens, Taiwan has expectations of Canada regarding the Foreign Investment Promotion and Protection Arrangements.

In your view, are the negotiations proceeding at a satisfactory pace to reach a desired conclusion soon?

[Dr. Harry Ho-jen Tseng]

I think the FIPA is going in a positive direction. What we need is the political will of both sides to sit down and talk. We are hopeful that some major steps can be demonstrated on both sides. There is momentum there, and I have hope that with the current momentum from both sides, we can really push the FIPA forward.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

Thank you very much.

Thank you, Mr. Bergeron.

Now we will go to Ms. McPherson for six minutes or a little more.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the representatives for being here today.

Of course, it's lovely to see you all again. I wish I could be there in person.

Thank you, as always, for informing this group of parliamentarians and for making yourself available for meetings with me regularly. Thank you so much for that.

We see Taiwan as a strong democracy and as a democracy that shares many values with Canada, such as support for indigenous reconciliation, environmental care, democracy and support for women. The work that Taiwan is doing on the sustainable development goals is admirable. I think I've expressed to you before that I wish we were as far along on SDGs in Canada as you are in Taiwan.

I would like to get some more clarity on one thing. We all watched with some trepidation what was happening in China during the 20th National Congress. You speak today about a chilling message you received from that.

I wonder if you could talk about your thoughts on what we heard from the national congress. What does it mean for Taiwan? What did you hear from it? What does it mean for the rest of the world and for Canada in particular?

[Dr. Harry Ho-jen Tseng]

I think what is happening in China now is going to affect every country in the world. I think it indicates that China as a market is getting more uncertain. It's getting riskier for Canada and for other countries because we will be trading with someone who lays stress not on profit but on political control. This is really very worrying for us.

We continue to see that the zero-COVID policy was very firm in the Chinese Communist Party's policy. Chinese leaders are very adamant on this point. It is not doing any good for the Chinese economy, and I think that is something we need to be very much aware of.

I think for Taiwan it carries something further. That something may not be strongly felt here in Canada, but I hope it can be better appreciated as time goes by. It is the security issue.

Many people have already read the report. This time in the political report, Xi Jinping used the term “security” more than 75 times. The internal pressure seems to come from external intervention, and that is a security concern for them. The more China stresses security, the more it will look inward and the tighter the political control will be. This is already showing an effect in China. I think that message should be taken up by all of us so we can be better prepared for any kind of possible consequences.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

We are seeing that. Recently, representatives from CSIS were at the procedure and House affairs committee talking about how they are increasingly concerned. You speak of China's influence within China being more internal, but the influence of China is spreading. The disinformation campaigns we are seeing, the reports of police stations, electoral influence, impacts on our media and threats toward Canadian Chinese people are all things that are happening.

Do you have any comments on what Canada should be doing to ensure that those threats are mitigated?

[Dr. Harry Ho-jen Tseng]

Again, I think this disinformation campaign you feel in Canada is perhaps only one part of the Chinese effort to expand its influence abroad. The way China does its control abroad is by extending its judicial powers into a third country. That is very concerning to us. As a matter of fact, in Taiwan we are facing a similar kind of challenge. The disinformation campaign in Taiwan, as I said just now, is part of our life because this is the way China has tried to infiltrate our society.

Even today, as we have seen what has come out of the 20th party congress, China, in the minds of its political leaders, thinks that taking away Taiwan without fighting with bullets is the cheapest way to do it. The way for that to become a reality is to use all kinds of cyber-attacks, grey-zone tactics, hybrid threats and all kinds of possible approaches, including disinformation campaigns.

Fortunately, this is a process of socialization. There is social education in Taiwan to tell our people to be better concerned with the news. When it comes up, you probably need to find out if it is not true. How are we able to do that? It is because there is a government policy to set up so-called fact check centres.

If you are suspicious of certain news on social media and consider that it may be malign and suspicious, you can just throw the news into that fact check centre. It is only an IP address. You check and then it will come back to you immediately to tell you which part of the news report or which part of the story is untrue. It can come back very quickly because chances are that many people will have the same suspicion. When the same news is thrown into this fact check centre, it learns to get the facts by itself. We learned to do that. This is something we can share with other countries.

All in all, I think what China is doing is against the norms and rules of the international community. No matter if it is a police station in a third country or a disinformation campaign of any kind, I think it only goes against good governance.

I hope we can work together.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

Thank you, Mr. Tseng.

We will pause now and turn it over to Mr. Seeback for six minutes.

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Tseng, you have talked about the FIPA. You say there needs to be a strong political will. I know this is a delicate subject. It seems to me that you have the political will and that you want this to move forward expeditiously.

Is there a lack of urgency on the part of Canada to get that agreement done?

[Dr. Harry Ho-jen Tseng]

Thank you, sir.

I think before I answer this question, I must report to you, ladies and gentlemen, that the relations between our two countries are moving in the right direction. There is an increasing improvement between our two countries, including in the relations on the economic and investment issues.

We understand that the FIPA and the CPTPP are very complicated issues. We are talking to each other in very good faith. Beginning in January this year, we have already conducted three exploratory discussions. Both sides are very happy about the result.

We are waiting to move on to the next phase, and that is why we think there must be some kind of determination to come for this to go through. I understand that trade matters need to go through different sectoral consent and that you want to make sure you're not signing some agreement at the expense of your business community. We understand that. However, if you don't talk, you cannot achieve the goal of not sacrificing your people.

What we are asking as Taiwan is that we sit down and have a real talk, not the prior talks before the real talk, and never fear to negotiate.

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

Would you like to see more substantive talks on the FIPA, then?

[Dr. Harry Ho-jen Tseng]

That's right.

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

I know for some of these questions you don't want to talk in a negative way about some of your work on the agreement, but this committee has to make recommendations, so I am asking some questions that may be a little uncomfortable.

With respect to the CPTPP, all countries involved would have to agree with your accession to the agreement. That's my understanding. China has also applied for the CPTPP very close in time with you.

What can Canada do to move your application forward? Are there other particular countries we should be speaking with to try to help get unanimous consent for that application to move forward?

[Dr. Harry Ho-jen Tseng]

I think both sides know that very well. The CPTPP is a multilateral platform, so as I am talking to you, all of my other colleagues in different missions are talking to their counterparts as well.

To get the multilateral support, we start with bilateral support. I am asking the Canadian government to show at least the positive gesture of welcoming Taiwan to apply for the CPTPP. Then the CPTPP would, at the right time, set up the working group to discuss our accession issue.

Right now, of course, the only issue under discussion is the U.K.'s accession issue. We understand all that, but what we are asking for with the CPTPP is for you to understand and support the fact that we are able to meet all the high requirements and high standards of the CPTPP. It's up to our trade people to decide whether we are up to the standard already. There has to be that kind of conversation and that kind of consultation before you decide that Taiwan is up to the job or not. We are asking for a fair chance.

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

Do you know if Canada is supporting your application? Has Canada made their position clear on your application to the CPTPP?

[Dr. Harry Ho-jen Tseng]

We get very polite responses from Canada. We understand, as I said, that all 11 members of the CPTPP are devoting their time to the U.K.'s accession issue, and that all the other issues, including China's application, have been put on the shelf.

We hope there will be something forthcoming in terms of our application. Our application should not be regarded side by side with China's. It should be on a credit basis that we can join. Then we can join on our own merit.

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

Briefly, as I have very little time, how can Canada help with the pressure that's being put on nations to not have formal recognition with Taiwan? Lithuania, for example, is under some trade sanctions from China as a result of their bilateral relations with you. How can Canada help with that?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

Please, sir, give a very brief answer.

[Dr. Harry Ho-jen Tseng]

Lithuania's relations with Taiwan are very unique. They continue to talk to Taiwan, and we helped them to weather through their difficulties when China used economic coercion as a retaliation for their receiving Taiwan's new office in Vilnius.

I think that is not the case we are facing between Canada and Taiwan.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken Hardie]

Thank you very much.

Now we will go to Ms. Yip for six minutes.