Evidence of meeting #6 for Canada-China Relations in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was relations.
A video is available from Parliament.
8:35 p.m.
Liberal
8:35 p.m.
NDP
Heather McPherson NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
What a fascinating conversation we're having. Thank you very much, Dr. Simon, for being here and sharing this with us.
I think all of us are trying to find ways to do what we can to ensure there is peace in Taiwan. This is everybody's goal, I think. You talked about things such as working on sustainable development goals, or ways we can work with them on development assistance. Those things are, of course, music to my ears. I know you are a specialist in indigenous relations in Taiwan.
What does it mean that Taiwan is not able to participate in the United Nations? What do we lose when we can't learn from Taiwan at the United Nations regarding things like UNDRIP or indigenous relations?
8:35 p.m.
Professor, University of Ottawa and Senior Fellow, Macdonald-Laurier Institute, As an Individual
There's so much we're losing because we don't have Taiwan in the UN. I think the representative talked a bit about that regarding the WHO and so forth.
In addition to that, as we're talking about indigenous issues, there are issues of indigenous rights in Taiwan that are unresolved, such as the rights of indigenous people to hunt according to their traditions. In many cases, hunting has been criminalized. Because they're not a part of the UN, the citizens—the people of Taiwan, including the indigenous peoples—don't have access to the special rapporteur for indigenous rights. They don't have full access to the permanent forum. When they go to it—and they go to it every year—they're in the side events. It would be an advantage to the indigenous peoples if they could actually have full access to United Nations proceedings on indigenous rights.
8:35 p.m.
NDP
Heather McPherson NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB
Thank you.
You also talked about universities and their needing more guidance, and that piqued my attention.
What did you mean by that, and what kind of guidance do they require?
8:35 p.m.
Professor, University of Ottawa and Senior Fellow, Macdonald-Laurier Institute, As an Individual
What I was thinking about there—and I was hoping that somebody would ask about it—is that with our chair of Taiwan studies, we have generally had no problem at all and no pressure from China at all, but something did happen once. That was in the year 2015 when we had a guest speaker, Dr. Andrew Young, a political scientist and sociologist who came to talk about the role of the Republic of China in World War II.
An assistant put the flag of the Republic of China on the website as part of the advertisement, and the embassy actually contacted the university and just bombarded the administration all the way up to the president of the university with emails and phone calls about this. The university was quite concerned that they would cancel a signing ceremony event that was coming up with the Academy of Sciences. I was actually told by one of our vice-deans that in the future we should avoid using any language or symbol that would upset the embassy of the People's Republic of China.
That's what I was thinking about. We really need guidance from the government, in fact, that would tell the universities that they don't take orders from foreign embassies.
8:40 p.m.
NDP
Heather McPherson NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB
That is, of course, difficult to do when the government is trying not to say anything at all sometimes.
8:40 p.m.
Professor, University of Ottawa and Senior Fellow, Macdonald-Laurier Institute, As an Individual
Yes.
8:40 p.m.
NDP
Heather McPherson NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB
You did talk a bit about development assistance and that one thing Canada could do is work with Taiwan on support for Haiti. Of course, that's a subject we're studying in the foreign affairs committee right now. Obviously, with what's happening in Haiti, they are in dire need of humanitarian assistance.
Can you tell me a bit about other ways that Canada could work with Taiwan with regard to international development? What are Taiwan's priorities, and could you perhaps point out a bit about where Taiwan's level of development assistance support is at? How do they play a role in the world, and can Canada learn from them?
8:40 p.m.
Professor, University of Ottawa and Senior Fellow, Macdonald-Laurier Institute, As an Individual
Yes, they do have international development assistance, and it's focused, of course, on the countries that have diplomatic relations with the Republic of China. These countries actually do recognize the government in Taipei as being the Government of China, which is a bit anachronistic in itself in some ways, but it's still useful because that means Taiwan doesn't have to declare independence from the Republic of China.
Getting back to the development aspect, there are so many places in Africa. They are now down to one country in Africa, Eswatini. I think it would be very useful to work with them on development projects—and Haiti is a good example of that—and remind other countries such as Haiti that they're doing this and that they're very happy they have relations with the Republic of China.
That's part of the precarious peace we have there. There are still some countries that recognize the ROC as the Government of China.
I was at a conference and there was a professor from the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences who was asked, “What would happen if China poached away all of the allies of Taiwan?” The professor said, “We can't let that happen because if that did happen, then Taiwan would have no other choice but to declare independence.”
I think this strange situation in which a handful of countries recognize them as the Government of China is actually a stabilizing force, and we can shore that up by working with Haiti, Palau, Nauru and all of these small countries on that.
Do you see the—
8:40 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ken Hardie
Ms. McPherson, I'm sorry, but you are out of time.
We'll go to our second round, with Mr. Kmiec, for five minutes.
8:40 p.m.
Conservative
Tom Kmiec Conservative Calgary Shepard, AB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I am going to go to the university question because you said you needed some guidance. You didn't really go very much into what type of guidance that would be.
Can you just expand on that? Is it just instructions of how to deal with foreign embassies, or is there anything more to it?
8:45 p.m.
Professor, University of Ottawa and Senior Fellow, Macdonald-Laurier Institute, As an Individual
I think it should be a bit more than that. It's the universities, but it's the whole research ecology we live in.
I mentioned drop-down menus, because when you talk about co-operating with other countries on the SSHRC application form, the drop-down menu says “Taiwan-Province of China”. It makes it appear as if the Government of Canada endorses China's claim over Taiwan.
I think we should have some guidelines so that universities, other educational institutions and the whole research network we have fall in line with Canada's policy and don't appear to fall in line with China's policy.
November 1st, 2022 / 8:45 p.m.
Conservative
Tom Kmiec Conservative Calgary Shepard, AB
Recently, in August this year, the Alberta government loosened some of the restrictions it had introduced on Alberta-based universities—we call them polytechnics—and how they could interact with the Chinese government. However, it left certain restrictions in place, such as signing new agreements involving visiting researchers and post-doctoral fellows, as well as arrangements for research commercialization technology transfers and intellectual property. In those situations, the universities are prohibited from signing new agreements or continuing agreements that were there before.
Is that the type of guidance that should be given to universities all across Canada—to watch the types of relationships they're building long term with institutions based in mainland China—or should they favour relationships with Taiwanese universities?
8:45 p.m.
Professor, University of Ottawa and Senior Fellow, Macdonald-Laurier Institute, As an Individual
I'm in agreement with the fact that there needs to be guidance on relations with China as well, but I think universities are sometimes very hesitant about relations with Taiwan.
I've been working on that at the University of Ottawa for 20 years. We've been very successful. We have MOUs with many universities in Taiwan, but it took a lot of work to get that done.
Taiwan is one of the priority countries for the University of Ottawa, but there are universities that are very timid about it, because they're afraid it would endanger their co-operation with China. Our experience at the University of Ottawa is that it does not endanger our relations with China. We can have relations with both sides.
8:45 p.m.
Conservative
Tom Kmiec Conservative Calgary Shepard, AB
Would it be helpful, then, for Canada to pass a simple framework legislation—as certain parties like to call it—that would be like a Canada-Taiwan official relations act? It would lay out and give a signal to the universities in Canada. It would be a more positive signal, rather than the negative signal of “don't do this”. We could positively say we would like them to pursue closer relationships with universities, polytechnics and colleges in Taiwan, and this would be beneficial for the people-to-people relationship between Canadians and the people of Taiwan.
Is that something that would help us?
8:45 p.m.
Professor, University of Ottawa and Senior Fellow, Macdonald-Laurier Institute, As an Individual
I think legislation on Canada-Taiwan relations would be very helpful. It's important to be very clear that this is for creating guidelines for Canadians within the protocol we already have.
8:45 p.m.
Conservative
Tom Kmiec Conservative Calgary Shepard, AB
Do you think this type of legislation needs to be very in-depth, or could it be like a value statement framework with just general pieces? I know that the U.S. Taiwan Relations Act is very in-depth. It goes into the military-security relationship. Should ours do so as well, or should it keep itself to the more civilian aspects of our relationship?
8:45 p.m.
Professor, University of Ottawa and Senior Fellow, Macdonald-Laurier Institute, As an Individual
I think that's something we're going to have to discuss in the years to come. It should be rather detailed and in-depth and should be about various aspects of our relations with Taiwan across society. That would, of course, include defence.
8:45 p.m.
Conservative
Tom Kmiec Conservative Calgary Shepard, AB
That's perfect.
On the people-to-people relationship, I asked a representative here before a question on the intimidation happening in Canada. It's something I've been asking at almost every meeting that I can.
Are you aware of any intimidation of citizens, visitors to Canada or people who are trying to do business here on behalf of Taiwanese companies to reach a deal with a Canadian university? Is there interference from a foreign source, namely the People's Republic of China's embassies or the consulates?
8:45 p.m.
Professor, University of Ottawa and Senior Fellow, Macdonald-Laurier Institute, As an Individual
Our students are from Hong Kong and Taiwan. We have Uighur students. We have Tibetan students. They report that there is interference and there are threats against them.
8:45 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ken Hardie
Thank you, Dr. Simon and Mr. Kmiec.
Now we'll go to Mr. Cormier for five minutes or less.
