Evidence of meeting #8 for Canada-China Relations in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was arctic.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Antoine Bondaz  Director, Taiwan Program, Foundation for Strategic Research and Professor, Sciences Po, As an Individual
Robert Huebert  Associate Professor, University of Calgary, As an Individual
Yeh-Chung Lu  Professor and Chair, Department of Diplomacy, National Chengchi University, As an Individual

6:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken Hardie

I call the meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number eight of the House of Commons Special Committee on Canada-People's Republic of China Relationship.

Pursuant to the order of reference of May 16, 2022, the committee is meeting on its study of the Canada-People's Republic of China Relations, with a focus on the Canada-Taiwan relations.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of June 23, 2022. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application.

I would like to take a few moments for the benefit of witnesses and members to pass along the following.

Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. For those participating by video conference, click on the microphone icon to activate your microphone, and please mute yourself when you are not speaking.

For those on Zoom, you have the choice of interpretation, at the bottom of your screen, of floor, English or French. For those in the room, you can use the earpiece and select the desired channel. I remind you that all comments should be addressed through the chair.

For members in the room, when the time comes, if you wish to speak, you could raise your hand. For members on Zoom, please use the “raise hand” function. The clerk and I will manage the speaking order as well as we can, and we appreciate your patience and understanding in this regard.

I understand that we have managed to do the sound check and that, at least for our first panel, we're in good shape.

That said, an old friend of mine used to describe skiing as a series of linked recoveries, and this is kind of our story here at the committee. We had originally intended and scheduled to have officials here for the first hour. At the very last minute, our officials were pulled away for a senior briefing and are not available to us, certainly not in person and certainly not virtually either. We have therefore adjusted the order of things.

With that, I understand there are a couple of things.

I'll recognize Mr. Chong first.

6:35 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Chong Conservative Wellington—Halton Hills, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to register my disappointment with these two witnesses, Weldon Epp and Jennie Chen of the Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development, for cancelling at the last hour before this committee began, and I would like you, Mr. Chair, through the clerk, to register this disappointment with these two witnesses.

I have to say that I've noticed this happening at other committees where witnesses are cancelling at the last minute, so I hope this doesn't start a trend at parliamentary committees. We sit late here, and I understand that the witnesses in this case were invited a week ago or more, so I wanted to register that disappointment, and I hope, Mr. Chair, that you would, through the clerk, register that disappointment with these two witnesses too.

6:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken Hardie

Thank you, Mr. Chong.

Mr. Oliphant, go ahead.

6:35 p.m.

Liberal

Rob Oliphant Liberal Don Valley West, ON

I would simply echo that sentiment completely. I think that our committee should make a strong statement from all the members of the committee that it is unacceptable, except in the case of an emergency, that officials do not appear when adequate notice has been given.

Parliament is paramount, and that should be understood by our officials. I don't believe this is a partisan issue. I think that we should be very clear in expressing that concern, and it should go to both the minister and the deputy minister as something that is not acceptable and should not happen.

There may be an emergency that I don't know about. I mean, I heard about this when I walked into the room, and I'm the parliamentary secretary. It is unacceptable, and I don't think it's acceptable for anyone on the committee. I think you would take that with unanimity, I would propose, from the other members of the committee as well.

6:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken Hardie

Thank you.

It is duly noted. I appreciate your intervention on this.

6:40 p.m.

Bloc

Stéphane Bergeron Bloc Montarville, QC

Is it noted or moved?

6:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken Hardie

There was no motion, Mr. Bergeron. If somebody wishes to make a motion, I'll entertain that, absolutely.

6:40 p.m.

Liberal

Rob Oliphant Liberal Don Valley West, ON

I move that the chair be instructed to report the concern that the committee is expressing around the failure of officials from the government to appear as scheduled and ask for their co-operation in an immediate future appearance.

6:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken Hardie

Following the procedure, are there any additional comments, or can we just accept that the committee agrees with that unanimously?

6:40 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

6:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken Hardie

It is so done. Thank you.

Yes, Mr. Oliphant.

6:40 p.m.

Liberal

Rob Oliphant Liberal Don Valley West, ON

I have a second point of order. I want to wish Mr. Chong a happy birthday.

See how magnanimous I am tonight? I can't think of a better group for you to spend your birthday with than this committee.

6:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken Hardie

If this were the natural resources committee, we would have to saw you in half to count the rings, but we don't. Happy birthday, Mr. Chong. Where is Ms. Desbiens? We need her in here to sing Happy Birthday.

With that, we do have to thank Dr. Antoine Bondaz, director of the Taiwan program at the Foundation for Strategic Research and an associate professor, for rescuing us and agreeing to come on an hour early. We very much appreciate that. I'll ask Dr. Bondaz to give us a five-minute opening statement.

Before we do that, though, I would also like to welcome to our group tonight Mr. McCauley and Mr. Iacono. Mr. Iacono was in Taiwan with our colleague Judy Sgro a few weeks ago and will have some reflections on that.

With regard to the business at hand, then, we'll go to Dr. Bondaz for an opening statement of five minutes.

6:40 p.m.

Dr. Antoine Bondaz Director, Taiwan Program, Foundation for Strategic Research and Professor, Sciences Po, As an Individual

Good evening.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ladies and gentlemen, members of the House of Commons Special Committee on the Canada–People's Republic of China Relationship, it is an honour and a responsibility to speak to you.

As well, with the 18th Francophonie Summit taking place this weekend in Tunisia, it is obviously a pleasure to be able to speak in French.

In August 2022, as you know, China deliberately provoked a fresh crisis in the Taiwan Strait, with the visit by Nancy Pelosi, the Speaker of the United States House of Representatives, as the pretext. The instruments of coercion used by China are well known: miliary exercises, cyber attacks, twisting international law, large-scale disinformation, and economic sanctions.

However, this new crisis was remarkable in its intensity and is part of an older strategy, since the election of President Tsai Ing-wen in 2016. That Chinese strategy is designed to increase pressure on the island, whether military, economic or information-related, and to isolate it on the international scene.

The unprecedented military exercises were held from August 4 to 15, 2022, and had been prepared well in advance. The People's Liberation Army, or PLA, conducted exercises intended to simulate a blockade to suffocate the island and prevent any foreign support, including American. Beijing tried to demonstrate its capacities for precision strikes, area and access denial, air superiority, submarine war, or logistical support.

While Chinese military aircraft crossed the median line in the Taiwan Strait only very rarely—four times since the beginning of the year—over 400 planes crossed it in August and September. Beijing also uses civilian drones to fly over the Taiwanese islands of Matsu and Jinmen, located off the shores of China.

These hybrid operations tested Taiwan's response and give me an opportunity to point to China's use of civilian capacities for military operations. In fact, the same is true for large-scale exercises that recently demonstrated the Chinese navy's ability to use large civilian ferries to launch a massive amphibious invasion of Taiwan.

As the parallels between the Russian invasion of Ukraine and the risk of a Chinese invasion of Taiwan grow, we must remember that the issue is not merely the influence of one state over another, or the territorial expansion of one state at the expense of another. The most important issue is the ambition to be a permanent member of the Security Council and to have Taiwan disappear as a sovereign and independent political entity. The choice is therefore not between the status quo and secessionism, as Beijing calls it, but between annexation, on the pretext of reunification, and the status quo. Beijing's determination is made even clearer in the latest white paper on Taiwan published in August 2022, the third after the ones in 1992 and 2000.

The Chinese Communist Party has at least three motivations for taking control of the island. Politically, the Communist Party intends to put an end to the last vestiges of the civil war that saw the Nationalist Party shrivel back to Taiwan. Ideologically, the Communist Party intends to enforce its argument that there is no alternative to its leadership on the continent and seeks to eliminate the counter-model presented by Taiwan, that is, a society that is culturally Chinese and multi-ethnic, and has democratized from within after a period of brutal dictatorship, and that has seen very strong economic growth since then. And militarily, the People's Liberation Army intends to have the capacity to install its armed forces on the island in order to expand its strategic depth and project itself toward the Pacific Ocean without impediment, so that, for example, it could strengthen the maritime component of Chinese nuclear deterrence.

Before concluding, I want to point out that conflict scenarios in the Taiwan Strait are not limited to the widespread caricature of a massive invasion of Taiwan by China. They could involve a whole series of actions by Beijing, including taking control of the Dongsha Islands in the South China Sea and violation of air space, or even a partial or total maritime blockade, around the island.

We should note that any conflict in the strait, far from remaining local and limited to China and Taiwan, would have global implications. It would involve at least the United States and potentially Japan, as well as other treaty allies of the United States, all countries that are essential economic and security partners for Europe and Canada. While the NATO treaty does not cover the Indo-Pacific region, translatantic solidarity would obviously be put to the test.

With the Taiwanese voting to elect their next president in January 2024, there is a high risk of a new crisis initiated and exploited by Beijing.

Westerners have stopped ignoring Taiwan in their official communications, as witnessed by the G7 joint statement in June 2021, which mentions Taiwan, and the and the G7 joint statement in August 2022, which is entirely dedicated to Taiwan, which is a first.

To conclude, being aware of the issues and risks is the best thing to do, to avoid the worst scenarios materializing. As I regularly explain to your parliamentary colleagues in Europe, we have a clear albeit limited role to play in this regard: to contribute to maintaining stability in the strait.

Thank you.

6:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken Hardie

Thank you, Dr. Bondaz.

We'll now go to Mr. Chong for our first round of questioning, for six minutes.

6:45 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Chong Conservative Wellington—Halton Hills, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for your testimony, Mr. Bondaz.

My first question is this.

Was Ms. Pelosi's visit to Taiwan the cause of China's military exercises in August? Did Beijing use Ms. Pelosi's visit as an excuse to start those military exercises between August 4 and 14?

6:50 p.m.

Director, Taiwan Program, Foundation for Strategic Research and Professor, Sciences Po, As an Individual

Dr. Antoine Bondaz

Thank you for the question.

The visit by Speaker of the House of Representatives Nancy Pelosi was obviously exploited by Beijing and used as a pretext.

There are several reasons for that.

First, Beijing was prepared for the visit, which was to have taken place in the spring of 2022 and was postponed because the Speaker had COVID‑19. She therefore had to cancel her first visit.

Second, August is an extremely busy month in China when it comes to military exercises. So there were two factors: classic military preparation, but also an expectation on the part of the Chinese leadership that the visit would take place.

It was possible to organize the exercises very rapidly because they had been prepared. Similarly, the publication of a white paper on Taiwan a few days after Nancy Pelosi's visit had obviously been prepared. As you know, no government, even the fastest, can produce a white paper in a few days. The white paper had been prepared and the government was more or less waiting for an excuse to publish it ahead of the 20th national congress of the Chinese Communist Party, which took place in October.

So China exploited an event that the Chinese authorities were expecting. In fact, that is why some people criticized the visit in advance, explaining that Beijing was obviously going to use it to conduct that exercise and try to change the status quo in the Taiwan Strait.

Once again, we have to be clear. This amounted to exploitation of the visit; using it was a pretext, and especially, more precisely, the pretext that there had been a change in American policy toward Taiwan. There has, however, been no change in American policy regarding Taiwan. The Biden administration has said that repeatedly. Nancy Pelosi, the Speaker of the House, has said it herself.

So there is an obvious intention on China's part to exploit a visit and be able to conduct exercises intended not only to train the Chinese armed forces, but also to change the status quo. I think that point is even more disturbing.

6:50 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Chong Conservative Wellington—Halton Hills, ON

Thank you for your answer.

My other question concerns a potential attack by China on Taiwan.

I think you said that China might not launch a massive attack on Taiwan.

What would the other scenarios for a Chinese attack on Taiwan be, though?

6:50 p.m.

Director, Taiwan Program, Foundation for Strategic Research and Professor, Sciences Po, As an Individual

Dr. Antoine Bondaz

Thank you for your question.

I think the risk lies in engaging in purely binary reasoning, in connection with the illegal Russian invasion of Ukraine, and thinking that the only possible option in the strait is either a form of precarious peace or a large-scale invasion by China.

China's objective is to take control of Taiwan, which, we must recall, is a territory that has never been part of the People's Republic of China since it was established in 1949. Obviously, its objective is to take control of that territory without having to resort to force. Beijing's objective is therefore to put pressure on Taiwanese society, to try to demoralize the population and make it lose confidence in its government, and to weaken it in order to potentially take control of the island.

A large-scale military operation would be China's last resort situation, and is obviously not the preferred scenario. With that said, that scenario cannot be ruled out. Other military scenarios to put pressure on Taiwan also cannot be ruled out.

As I very quickly alluded to, questions arise, for example, regarding a violation of Taiwan's airspace by Chinese fighter jets. So far, that has not happened. It might be the question of taking control of the islands of Matsu and Jinmen, which are located only a few kilometres off the Chinese coast and are extremely difficult for Taiwan to defend. The question might arise in relation to large-scale military exercises that might, this time, amount to a partial blockade of the island. All these military scenarios would be aimed not at invading the island, necessarily, but at bringing enormous pressure to bear on the island to try, perhaps, through a negotiated political option put forward by Beijing, to take control of the island.

The situation is therefore not a binary one between precarious peace and an invasion, and China has all the military options available to it to try once again to pressure and isolate Taiwan on the international scene.

6:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken Hardie

Thank you, Mr. Chong. Your time has expired.

We will now go to Mr. Cormier.

6:55 p.m.

Liberal

Rob Oliphant Liberal Don Valley West, ON

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

I'm going to float this. If it takes a lot of discussion, I won't hold it on.

I'm suggesting that.... Normally, we would have a panel of witnesses and have an hour. The witness has been an excellent witness, but I'm wondering about shortening this panel by about 10 minutes, ending it at about 7:20, and taking five minutes out of the next panel to do about 15 minutes of committee business to look at the report outline. I think we may be able to do it in 15 minutes. We'd have 55 minutes for the next panel and we'd be out at 8:30 as opposed to 9:30.

I think it could work if the committee agreed to that. We have an hour. We have a shorter panel in the second one and only one witness in this one. It may be fairer to the witnesses not to have them grilled for an hour.

6:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken Hardie

If we can get through at least two rounds, I think we will be in good shape there.

6:55 p.m.

Liberal

Rob Oliphant Liberal Don Valley West, ON

We can shorten the other one.

6:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken Hardie

We will try that.

6:55 p.m.

Liberal

Rob Oliphant Liberal Don Valley West, ON

It's Michael's birthday, so we should do it.