Canadian Heritage Committee on March 12th, 2007

[Curtis Shaw]

That is part of the conundrum. People are consuming less television, and the CBC is seeing fewer advertising dollars. That's happening right across Canada in the broadcasting industry. People are going to the Internet for their news, for their content, whether it is for streaming radio or video or for static news pages or updated news pages.

I think that's at the heart of the problem today; new media and traditional media are getting blurred together. And you can't really compartmentalize them in certain blocks. You can't say that this is television, this is radio, this is the web. The lines have totally blurred in terms of consumer preference and consumer behaviour.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

Mr. Provencher, one of statistics we heard today was that 40% of northern homes have CBC radio and television. You mentioned the quality of reception. Coming from a small community, I know of the problems with the existing reception and service from CBC in terms of its broadcasting range in the small communities.

Perhaps you could speak to that. You mentioned it as an issue in your report. I see it as an issue as well in most small communities, where there are very weak signals for television and radio.

[Léo-Paul Provencher]

Mr. Bevington, are you talking about reception in English?

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

Yes.

[Léo-Paul Provencher]

Unfortunately, I don't have any analysis on that subject.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

Of course the service en français est impossible.

[Léo-Paul Provencher]

I hope isn't impossible, but it isn't there.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

To the young lady who's just arrived, could you give your name, please? And could you perhaps answer that question?

[Carmen Moral-Suarez, General Manager, Association franco-culturelle de Yellowknife]

My name is Carmen Moral-Suarez, and I am Executive Director of the Association franco-culturelle de Yellowknife. I had a presentation to make, but I jumped at and wanted to respond to Mr. Bevington immediately.

It's very possible that there are identical signal problems for the English and French channels; I don't know. Moreover, there's a major difference, and the purpose of my presentation was to explain the exact situation regarding Radio-Canada's radio and television broadcasting in Yellowknife. If the English channel breaks down, an association doesn't have to pay to repair it. However, if the signal breaks down, as occurred in Hay River a few days ago, our association has to pay with the money it receives from Canadian Heritage for community development.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

That's scandalous; it's shameful.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Thank you, Ms. Moral-Suarez. You're going to be making the rest of your presentation shortly.

I have one question. I think I know the answer, but I want to ask the question so that I can get the answer on the record.

In general, do you feel that Canada's north is well served by the CBC? And are there any improvements that could be made?

Go ahead, Mr. Foisy.

[Batiste Foisy]

In general, I'd say the north is totally well served by the CBC but totally disserved by Radio-Canada.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Is that a general consensus?

[Christopher O'Brien]

There's always the possibility that there's room for improvement, but there's not an awful lot to complain about.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Thank you.

Thank you for your presentations, and for your answers.

We'll take a short break before we call our next witnesses.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Order. I suggest we get started if we want to finish before midnight.

Ms. Saunders, you're on first.

[Barbara Saunders, As an Individual]

But I'm not even finished making my notes yet....

That's okay. Thank you, sir.

My name is Barbara Saunders. I'm a resident of Yellowknife. I've come out tonight because I am a lifer with CBC. My son was raised on CBC. I'm familiar with Don Herron, Peter Gzowski, Shelagh Rogers, etc.

I have witnessed and often protested the erosion in Canadian society of our peacekeeper reputation, of our universal health care system, of our transportation, of particularly the Canada-wide railways. I have seen the erosion of the political will for a society that values gender equity.

I see that CBC has managed to keep clear, for the most part, on these entities that make us a country. However, I will say that I have been hearing on CBC more experts from the United States, invited by the CBC to testify on various issues, than I have heard in the past. I question that, and I worry about that. I see that as further integration into the United States' ideologies and politics. That scares me.

In the north I see CBC as a very important entity. I'm very disappointed not to see CBC television cameras here tonight. I question why they're not here.

I also question any thought of lack of CBC services. Particularly in the north, CBC is considered a lifeline. It is considered a lifeline for all of our cultures. When you listen to CBC in the morning, you understand that the Gwich'in in Inuvik or in Tuktoyaktuk or the Sahtu peoples of Deline are listening, because they call in on the contest shows and some will speak their language.

We are fortunate to have the ability to hear the languages. Even though I do not speak or understand any of them, I enjoy listening to them--especially when my name pops up amongst it all.

Anyway, I respect it very much. I respect the fact that CBC is the main entity that keeps Canadian society and culture alive. What would we do without Canada Reads? What would we do without the stories that CBC brings to us, Canadian stories that bind us together, that we can rely on, that people across the country listen to and share?

When we talk about technologies, I would consider myself in many ways a Luddite. I do not have the technical ability to understand all of it. However, I am part of a major population: I am a baby boomer. You will understand that many baby boomers listen to CBC and watch CBC and respect CBC. Should you erase or change or erode any aspect of CBC radio or TV, we will be out in full force--and we are many.

I respect the technical knowledge of our youth and their iPods and everything else they have. When you talk about Sirius CBC, which Mr. Shaw was talking about, and about our going often to the Internet for the news, I will challenge that. I believe the majority of Canadians rely on radio and television for their news, not the Internet. I believe we are still a majority there.

I can't give you scientific facts, but I can tell you that we have to understand the different means of listening, of learning, across our country. Not all of us have the ability to understand the technology before us. And not only that, we must understand that the spoken word is far more powerful than any other technologies that I've seen to date for stories, for information sharing--or for “knowledge transfer”, as I believe the government likes to refer to it.

If anything, CBC must remain a public domain. It must be fully costed. We cannot afford to lose any of that. Any thought of selling even a share of it will erode what I see as the last entity of Canadian people speaking together.

Thank you. That's all I have to say.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Thank you.

Ms. Little.

[Lois Little, As an Individual]

Hello. My name is Lois Little. I live here in Yellowknife, and I'm here as a citizen.

I'm really glad that you came here, that you have your ears open to northerners. I'm sure you're getting the impression now that we're all pretty passionate about public broadcasting.

I'm one of those people who are very passionate about public broadcasting. I listen to CBC radio all day long, including the aboriginal languages. Listening to aboriginal languages on CBC radio reminds me of where I live, reminds me of the cultures around me. I think it helps me understand and be connected to the people around me.

For me, public broadcasting is the ultimate expression of democracy. It's citizens' voices, it's our ideas, it's our values, it's our perspective. It's all of those things. It's men's voices, it's women's voices, it's the diversity of cultures and ideas. That's what democracy is all about.

For me, CBC is the essence of democracy in Canada in a very large way. In the 21st century, when democracy is under threat around the world, I think it's incumbent on CBC to keep our democracy strong in Canada. Certainly our democracy is strong in the north. As we have global multinationals moving into the north and starting to shape public opinion and starting to influence our very small governments, just by their sheer size, it's so important for CBC to be that connection that allows citizens to speak and be heard.

I love public broadcasting. I love the fact that there is no commercial or market or political bias driving our CBC. I urge this committee to make it part of the mandate taking us into the 21st century that market and political bias will stay far away from our public broadcaster.

I guess it's because I am so passionate about public broadcasting that I have very high expectations of my public broadcaster. The CBC people around the room probably cringe when they turn on the talk-back machine, because there's going to be the voice of Lois Little, making a comment about something. But that's part of my responsibility as a citizen. We have a responsibility in a democracy to have our voices heard and to be heard.

I don't intend to lower my expectations of my government and I don't intend to lower my expectations of my public broadcaster, because those entities are me. I expect my public broadcaster to be airing all of the diverse views and values and perspectives in this territory. I expect to be hearing English and French and all of the aboriginal languages on my public broadcaster. And I expect my public broadcaster to be very creative in the way in which it uses its resources and balances all of the different views and cultures out there. I expect my public broadcaster to be very professional and very committed to the mandate of CBC.

With those high expectations in mind, in January of this year I wrote out my New Year's resolutions for my public broadcaster. My New Year's resolutions focused very much on regional programming, which is very important to me. I value both the regional and the national mandates of the CBC, but the mandate that I feel I can influence is the regional mandate. So I put together this list of nine resolutions for my regional public broadcaster, encouraging them to be more creative and more professional and more committed to the mandate of CBC.

Unlike some of the other speakers, I don't believe the CBC is good enough the way it is now. I don't think it is a matter of leaving it alone and letting it be. I think it's a matter of trying harder and better reflecting all of the voices in the north.

Speaking more from a regional perspective, it's a matter of making sure that we're hearing all of the voices, that we're not cluttering up regional programming with mindless, commercial-like goop. That does not serve the public interest and it does not serve democracy.

I would like to see this committee have more exacting standards for CBC to uphold nationally and regionally, because I have very high expectations of my public broadcaster.

I'll leave it at that. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Thank you.

Mr. McDonald.

[Ben McDonald, As an Individual]

Thank you.

I couldn't get my printer to work, which is why I'm reading from the screen here. You'll have to forgive me.

My name is Ben McDonald. The committee asked me earlier this evening, when I was registering to speak, whether or not I was here representing a group. I'd like to say that if more time had been available to me, I probably would be representing a group; I'm involved in social justice coalitions and organizations to promote the greater use of information and communications technology in the Northwest Territories. However, I wasn't able to produce something in time for anybody to endorse, so these are personal comments.

That said, those organizations do provide the framework for what I'm going to talk about, including commitment to equality, commitment to democracy, and commitment to better communication and free speech.

As a starting point, when I was preparing my thoughts for what I would say tonight, I went to the Internet, to the site of Friends of Canadian Broadcasting. I'm sure that's an organization you folks are all familiar with. I generally endorse the positions that group presents in the various briefs and positions it puts to committees and agencies of the government--for example, on issues involving the appointment and composition of the CBC board of directors.

Friends of Canadian Broadcasting raises the point, for instance, that we have reason for concern because the board is not necessarily an independent operation, working completely independently, free of political influence. I think the method through which the president of the corporation is appointed--namely, by the Governor in Council or the Prime Minister, either directly or semi-indirectly--is fraught with danger, and it should be examined. It's better to have the president of the corporation appointed by the board to which he or she is responsible.

There are some other things on the Friends of Canadian Broadcasting site--about the different forms of information technology, about the means by which the CBC could raise money--but I'll just direct you there rather than take the time here. That said, one thing on the site does surprise me quite a bit, and that's where statistics, which I think were generated by a research body on behalf of the government, show that CBC's level of support puts it at number 20, out of 25 OECD countries, as a portion of gross domestic product.

I was quite surprised by that statistic. Considering the ten or more years of cuts we've had, other public broadcasters are funded at much greater proportions of the gross domestic product than is the CBC. The Friends' position is that it would be better to go to the average of the OECD. Considering the cuts that have happened over the last years and the importance of the CBC to the national fabric, I'm not sure even that is acceptable. Countries like Finland, Germany, and England contribute almost twice as much to their public broadcasters as the Canadian system does.

Much of what I'm going to say will be a repeat of what other speakers have said. The public broadcaster is needed, especially in the north, because it really is the only game in town when it comes to a northern or pan-territorial perspective. No agency in the north has the resources that the public broadcaster has to do the research and the analysis and the storytelling.

I agree with both sides: I'm a fervent supporter of the CBC, but I'm not so great a supporter of the CBC that I don't think there's room for improvement. As to how that is to come about, I'm not an expert. I do believe there are issues in the north that are not adequately addressed. Sometimes I hear--with all due respect to the previous speakers--that there's no ideological slant to the CBC. Well, quite often, I'd say 99.9% of the time, I can't tell any ideological difference between the newscasts and analysis and stories that come out on the CBC and what I see in the private sector. There's just not that much difference.

What is very critical, though, is that at least the CBC has the mandate and the flexibility and the independence that it could take a different position, if it were necessary. Private broadcasters, beholden to their boards of directors, are going to toe the line with the board of directors. If we have a well-appointed, well-constituted board, then the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, if there is good reason for an alternative viewpoint to be put out there, at least is going to have the flexibility, and I hope the integrity, to allow them to do that.

The CBC is needed to provide an alternative voice--this is probably expanding on what was said before--in both the public and private dichotomy, but also in the ever more deregulated and concentrated corporate world. I think the experience of the American media, especially newspaper, is that as corporations take over family businesses, their expectations for the rate of return increase dramatically. The way those rates of return are achieved is by attacking the softest parts of the organization, and the softest parts usually are news coverage and analysis, the things that we listen to the CBC for.

I think we have to keep it in mind that going to a private sector operation is not going to mean that we'll have anything comparable to the CBC, because it requires public funding for us to have the type of CBC we all want.

As a final point, I'm not 100% sure how the board is now constituted, but I do believe there is a need for regional voices on the board of the CBC. I realize it would be a really difficult political challenge to determine what regions deserve representation and how many there would be. I don't think the regional voices should come at the expense of good business leadership, journalistic knowledge, cultural commitment, and all those other things, but it does appear to me that for the CBC to get out of Toronto, to get out of Montreal--I guess that's the SRC, which I don't listen to--part of the way to do it is to bring other voices in. One of the ways to do that would be to specify regional voices, and potentially cultural voices, considering the size of the aboriginal population in Canada. In the north especially, it may well be that we need aboriginal voices on the board as well.

I have one final point. This is unsubstantiated rumour, but if it's true, I think it's emblematic of the problems the CBC has had in the last while. I've heard that in the recent decision to go from a half hour of regional news broadcast to a full hour of regional news broadcast, no change in resources was allocated to the program. The doubling of the programming is going to be absorbed somehow through the CBC, in this circumstance CBC North specifically--all in the face of ten years of cuts.

Again, that's unsubstantiated rumour, but I'd ask you to look into that to see whether this is the case or has been the case. If it is, then it's going to be very difficult for the CBC to meet its mandate in the north--namely, to reflect northern voices to northerners and to the rest of Canada.

With that, I thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Thank you.

Ms. Moral-Suarez.

[Carmen Moral-Suarez]

Good evening again.

Like everyone else, I'm pleased that you're here. Those aren't empty words; we've been waiting for you for a very long time, and we're pleased to see you and to be able to talk to you.

I'm going to supplement the presentation made by my colleague the Executive Director of the Fédération Franco-TéNOise. I'm not going to go back over a lot of points that he talked about, since, as he said, his presentation reflected the concerns of the network of francophone associations. However, I am going to focus a little more on the specific situation of Yellowknife, since that's the one I know. I direct the local francophone cultural association.

First, Mr. Chairman, you explained a little why, but I nevertheless want to emphasize one thing. Given the needs that exist in the North, we are a bit surprised to hear you say that you're only going to Yellowknife. I can understand why, but I point it out all the same.

The situations of Nunavut and Whitehorse are quite different. Even here, in the Northwest Territories, you see that the situations of Yellowknife, Hay River, Fort Smith and Inuvik are very different from one another. So you can imagine what happens when you go outside the region.

Since there have been presentations before mine, I've inserted some brief remarks in my text. So I'm going to make our interpreter suffer a little.

The question was asked by Ms. Bourgeois. With regard to Radio-Canada's mandate, as it was presented to us in the notice of meeting, Mr. Provencher emphasized that we agreed on that mandate, but that we had the impression it was not necessarily being carried out.

I would like us to examine that mandate, and we'll see that there is no statement explaining how the corporation will equip itself to discharge its obligations. When you read the statement of the mandate, you see that it lacks the portion on the equipment for carrying out its mandate.

The arrival of the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage has been an opportunity for our association to look into the corporate memory to see what happened to our Radio-Canada signal. As Mr. Provencher said, we suffer from staff turnover, which is a consequence of citizen turnover. Consequently, briefs get lost, and records are moved around. I thank you once again because this was a very salutary exercise.

It is important to know that the francophone community in Yellowknife, and subsequently the Northwest Territories, was formed around the need for broadcasting in French. The need to receive the signal was at the origin of the formation of what was the Association culturelle franco-ténoise at the time.

At that time, we were told that broadcasting the signal in the Northwest Territories was not in the Corporation's plans. The matter came to an end in 1991. The fight was a long one, but, in 1991, we finally were able to receive Radio-Canada's French-language radio and television from Montreal.

The fight was a long one, but can we say that it was won? What comes out of our searching today is what has disappeared from the briefs. Since everyone receives Radio-Canada in French, we've forgotten that Radio-Canada doesn't broadcast its programs in the Northwest Territories. Who broadcasts the Radio-Canada signal in Yellowknife? It's the Association franco-culturelle de Yellowknife.

When I was preparing this presentation, I couldn't exactly determine the cost that that represents. It should also be said that that's been somewhat lost in the association's records, in its memory. We have an annual invoice for $6,400 for the rent of the space where we can broadcast. That should be qualified, however, since we still have to determine exactly what is attributable to our community radio station, on the one hand, and what is attributable to the Radio-Canada broadcast, on the other.

Whatever the amount billed, our community nevertheless pays, out of the funds that are allocated to it by the Department of Canadian Heritage for community development, for a service that other communities obtain through taxes paid by all citizens. As Batiste Foisy said earlier, we're paying for this service twice.

To answer Mr. Bevington, I'll say that, in the event of a breakdown, we are the ones who must bear the cost of repairs, since we own the equipment. Of course, we wonder how the citizens of Ontario or Quebec would react if Radio-Canada suddenly announced that they had to form an association in order to be able to receive Le Téléjournal in French and to pay for repairs to broadcasting facilities, which were broken. We'd like the committee to consider the question and to tell us how many official language minority communities in the country are in the same situation.

As I listened to the presentations preceding mine, I admit that I felt a little jealousy or envy. I know what people feel when they talk about their attachment to the CBC. I experienced the same thing in Quebec with Radio-Canada's French-language programming. I know what it means to have a good-quality radio station that reflects who we are. It is true that, in Quebec, Télé-Québec is a strong competitor for Radio-Canada. However, no competitor is Radio-Canada's equal in radio.

I understand, and I agree with what people here are saying, but, ultimately, when I listen to Radio-Canada radio here, I see that it doesn't kindle a sense of belonging among Northern people. It gives me the impression of being an exile and constantly reminds me that I'm not part of the class.

Radio-Canada has a major role to play with regard to the sense of belonging that Canada wants to create across the country, but it's failing in its duty.

In conclusion, we hope that today's hearings will produce tangible results. I would like to recall that we have maintained the service for 16 years and that we have funded Radio-Canada out of very limited budgets. I believe that AFCY has proven the constant interest of the francophone community in receiving Radio-Canada's French-language programs.

I would like to emphasize that no one knew that it was AFCY that was offering those programs to the public. Even we didn't know it, until recently. Approximately one year ago, when I was told that that was what the amount of the invoice was for, I said it was impossible and that it had to be costs of the community radio station. But no. Thanks to your coming here, we have realized the facts. However, when you watch TV, there isn't any small logo at the bottom of the screen stating that the program is made possible by the Association franco-culturelle de Yellowknife. People who tune in to Radio-Canada think that it's providing the broadcast.

I think it's time that Radio-Canada took effective steps to lighten the burden on the local cultural association, which has other issues to manage.

Thank you for your attention.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Thank you.

Ms. Brockman.

[Aggie Brockman, As an Individual]

My name is Aggie Brockman, and I'm speaking as a private citizen of Canada.

Other people have talked about how important the CBC is, and certainly it's very important to me. Probably a number of people here have been in small communities in the north and have been interviewed on the local radio station. The way it works is that the local radio station in Fort McPherson or Behchoko or Paulatuk will cut out of CBC for an hour or two a day and have local programming. Then they'll cut back in. Woe the person who forgets to flick that switch back to CBC; the phone starts ringing right away. People want the local programming, and it is an opportunity for that, but they also want to be switched back to CBC.

As other people have said, it's a very critical service here. If the principal in Fort Good Hope wants people to know that the school is closed today, that's how it happens.

I feel very strongly about the aboriginal language programming on CBC. We get three hours and fifteen minutes Monday to Friday and one hour on Saturday. I think it's very important. I was looking at the CBC mandate, and I noted that aboriginal language programming wasn't there explicitly. But perhaps it should be, and that might be something this committee could consider for areas of the country in which we have large populations of aboriginal peoples. It's critical, as Lois said, to knowing where we live. It's also a critical element in language maintenance, which I think is a significant issue here.

What I'd like to say is that there are some things that shouldn't be privatized. Really, CBC is the only game in town that can provide a certain type of and level of service in the north.

Is CBC serving us well, and does CBC get enough money to fulfill its mandate? Obviously it doesn't for the francophone community, regretfully, and I hope your committee will make some recommendations around that. I suppose it doesn't meet people's expectations in some other ways. I speak a bit from experience because I worked at CBC, although quite a long time ago. Currently CBC news is often unable to cover events if the events happen on a weekend, or after 5 p.m., due to overtime costs or whatever other barrier. I don't think that's serving us well. A lot of things happen after hours--this hearing, for instance.

I don't think there's an ability for news people to travel the way they were able to in my day. It's important that there be that ability to travel, and not just when there's a specific major event like the winter games in Whitehorse. You need to be able to travel to small communities to build relationships, to tell the stories that may not be earth-shattering but that are important to people. Those stories don't get covered if people are never in those small communities. Instead, people rely on Yellowknife-based stories, like the courts, which our newspaper would actually cover. So a lot of good stories don't get covered because of travel limitations.

I think there's an emphasis on sports programming, certainly on a national level. I'm not sure if that's because it generates money while other things, such as arts and culture, do not. We see the purchase of American and British sitcoms on television, instead of original programming. On radio and TV we see repeated programs, not always new programs.

We see people doing the easy interviews. Even regional programmers do interviews around national stories, without a northern slant, because those are easy. They're interviews that would be set up by southern producers, so not focusing on the northern stories.

We see no increase in northern-based television production on CBC, even though television has been here in the north for more than 25 years.

Those are some things for which I think we need more money, not less, to make sure that we're better served.

Thank you very much for the opportunity to be heard.