Evidence of meeting #32 for Canadian Heritage in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was programming.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Gene Ramsbottom  As an Individual
Jane Whiteley  As an Individual
Robert Sunter  As an Individual
William Bruneau  Chair, Executive Committee, Stand on Guard for CBC
Bob D'Eith  Executive Director, Music BC Industry Association
Richard Kurth  Professor and Director, School of Music, University of British Columbia
Bramwell Tovey  Music Director, Vancouver Symphony Orchestra

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Schellenberger

I'd like to call this meeting to order. This is meeting 32 of the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), a study on the dismantling of the CBC Radio Orchestra, on CBC/Radio-Canada's commitment to classical music, and the changes to CBC Radio 2.

I'm Gary Schellenberger, chair of the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage.

Welcome, folks from Vancouver.

Could you go around the table and just introduce yourselves first? I have an order of speaking time for people, and I will then go down the names.

3:35 p.m.

Gene Ramsbottom As an Individual

My name is Gene Ramsbottom. I'm here as an individual.

3:35 p.m.

Jane Whiteley As an Individual

My name is Jane Whiteley. I am also here as an individual.

3:35 p.m.

Robert Sunter As an Individual

My name is Robert Sunter, and I'm also an individual--most of the time.

3:35 p.m.

Dr. William Bruneau Chair, Executive Committee, Stand on Guard for CBC

I'm Bill Bruneau. I'm the chair of the Stand on Guard for CBC coalition.

3:35 p.m.

Bob D'Eith Executive Director, Music BC Industry Association

I'm Bob D'Eith, executive director of Music BC.

3:35 p.m.

Dr. Richard Kurth Professor and Director, School of Music, University of British Columbia

I'm Richard Kurth, director of the School of Music at UBC, representing students of music in the province.

3:35 p.m.

Bramwell Tovey Music Director, Vancouver Symphony Orchestra

I'm Bramwell Tovey, the music director of the Vancouver Symphony Orchestra.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Schellenberger

Thank you, and welcome to everyone.

Mr. Bruneau, could you start with your presentation, for five minutes, please?

3:35 p.m.

Chair, Executive Committee, Stand on Guard for CBC

William Bruneau

Thank you, Mr. Chair and distinguished members of the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage.

The Stand on Guard For CBC coalition, of which I chair the executive committee, accepts the wisdom of an arm's-length relation between the government of Canada and the CBC/Radio-Canada. Yet we argue a vigorous role for your committee and for the government of Canada vis-à-vis the CBC and de CBC Radio Orchestra. I will tell you why in a moment.

I want to make sure I get to my main points, so I'm going to skip to the end and give you those now.

I'm going to propose, for various reasons, that the president and board of the CBC should be asked to take their decisions far more in the open than they do at present, and second, that your committee is justified to undertake a detailed inquiry into CBC procedures and practice, particularly of the past decade, that it is within your jurisdiction.

The methods of appointment of CBC presidents and board members should be reviewed on a variety of grounds, and general CBC funding should be restored to 1996 levels in inflation-adjusted dollars by 2011.

Those are four propositions I would like to leave with you, which I claim to be within your jurisdiction. I'll repeat them, if you like, later in the meeting.

I have two that I would love to see proposed to the CBC board of directors, if possible. One is that concert and classical music come to occupy about half of all Radio 2 broadcast time and be offered in an all-classical format in prime listening hours. That is our wish. Second is that retention of the CBC Radio Orchestra is a central and prior consideration in rebuilding Radio 2.

I'll offer one or two arguments for some of those points.

The coalition has heard repeatedly that CBC is in the middle of a period of hard times and the CBC Radio Orchestra must go. We take the opposite tack. It would be far better to expand the orchestra's budget, perhaps to $2.5 million per annum from present levels, with annual adjustments for inflation, and have 20 or 30 studio broadcasts each year. At that level of funding, the orchestra would still cost about one-tenth of one percent of overall CBC expenditures and revenues. In return, Canadians would sustain an improved Radio 2 programming and many new commissions of Canadian music.

The difficulty, of course, is that we must persuade the CBC board of directors and the CBC's management team of all this. Where, then, and how should your committee and the Government of Canada intervene in the CBC's affairs?

I want to suggest that the question of overall funding is definitely within the jurisdiction of the committee and the government. That's one way. Another way is to consider how the CBC arrives at its priorities, and whether or not that is done sufficiently in the open, with reasons given to the people of Canada so we can understand their reasoning and arguments as best we can.

Is my time up?

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Schellenberger

You have about 40 seconds, sir.

3:40 p.m.

Chair, Executive Committee, Stand on Guard for CBC

Dr. William Bruneau

That's enough, thanks.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Schellenberger

Our next person on the docket is Bob D'Eith.

3:40 p.m.

Executive Director, Music BC Industry Association

Bob D'Eith

My name is Bob D'Eith. I'm the executive director of Music BC Industry Association. We're a non-profit provincial music industry association. We're devoted to promoting the spirit, development, and growth of the B.C. music community provincially, nationally, and internationally. We provide education, resources, advocacy, opportunity for funding, networking, and a forum for communication. Our membership is approximately 650, with 3,000 people in our e-news database. We represent a broad range of artists from all genres, as well as recording studios, producers, labels, and publishers, so we're very much an overriding organization.

I'm going to deal with all three issues as quickly as I can.

First are the changes to CBC Radio 2. According to the vice-president of the CBC, Jane Chalmers, one-half of the present Radio 2 listeners are over the age of 65, and in an attempt to bring the demographic down to 35, some changes are being made by broadening the playlist to include jazz and contemporary music. Of course, this means some classical programming is being cut.

Obviously, we represent the entire industry from all genres--rock, pop, classical, and jazz--and also from the professional side. We support classical music in all forms and hope this genre will continue to thrive and grow in terms of both historical music performance and modern composition. We're very pleased that Radio 2 is keeping classical music at the core of its playing list, especially from 10 a.m. to 3 p.m., but we feel broadening the styles of music may lead to a greater appreciation of new works and classical music: if a younger demographic is tuning in to Radio 2, they may be more likely to experience other programming by CBC, including classical music.

We also applaud CBC management for rebranding CBC Radio 2 to include more jazz and contemporary music. We feel the broader range of repertoire will bring more listeners and a broader age demographic to CBC radio, and we feel this is very important in an ever-changing music community.

One of the accusations made in a recent article by a fellow named David Drucker was that CBC Radio 2 will become indistinguishable from commercial radio, and we'd strongly disagree with this contention. Commercial radio right now is extremely tight in the number of artists it's playing. With the changes in the music industry, independent artists are finding it harder to get any radio play whatsoever. Through increasing its range of play, CBC Radio 2 will make it possible for many more independent and emerging artists, who would never have been played on commercial radio, to be able to find airtime.

With regard to dismantling the CBC Radio Orchestra, we feel this is a completely separate issue. The CBC Radio Orchestra is the only orchestra of its kind left in North America and it must be preserved at all costs.

The budgetary argument is not a strong one. I believe there's a $400,000 budget for this orchestra at this point; in overall budgetary terms, that's really not significant, and I don't think that's a great argument. The other point is that we feel maybe certain things could be retooled to make it a more profitable venture. For example, I was talking to the AFM, and they have a contract that allows orchestras to have buyouts on Canadian film productions to play orchestral music. If that were used more by the CBC Radio Orchestra, perhaps there could be other ways for it to make money to sustain itself.

As for CBC's commitment to classical music generally, that's a tough one. I think you have to look at the definition of classical music. It's a very broad term; it ranges from everything from the classics right up to modern experimental composition. Before there can be an assessment of a commitment to classical music, we have to decide what that means and what parts of classical music are important, and I want to make the distinction between the classics and new Canadian musical works.

If there is a commitment, we feel there should be more of a commitment to Canadian composition and Canadian composers—I think that's really important—and excellent interpreters like Glenn Gould. That's the role of the CBC, to help people like the Glenn Goulds of this world, and it should continue.

Mr. Chair, I'm sure I'm running out of time.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Schellenberger

You are out of time.

3:45 p.m.

Executive Director, Music BC Industry Association

Bob D'Eith

Thank you very much. I didn't finish everything, but I want to close by saying that we do think the CBC should continue to support classical music.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Schellenberger

Thank you for that.

Now we turn to Richard Kurth, please.

3:45 p.m.

Professor and Director, School of Music, University of British Columbia

Dr. Richard Kurth

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Honourable members of the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage, thank you for this opportunity to comment on the recent and unfortunate decision to disband the CBC Radio Orchestra.

I speak to you as a music educator, and specifically as director of the School of Music at the University of British Columbia, which includes 400 undergraduate and graduate students preparing for professional careers in the concert music tradition. Across Canada, about 4,000 students are enrolled in similar university programs. These institutions are devoted to cultivating the boundless talents and energies of the next generation of musicians in the concert music tradition. Our enrolment numbers indicate that this tradition remains an urgent inspiration to young people today.

We operate in an atmosphere of respect for the long musical traditions of many countries, languages, and cultures, knowing that they are the richest source of nourishment for the musical life of the present and the future. Collectively, our programs produce about 1,000 graduates each year who are active across the country and beyond as professional soloists, orchestra members, chamber musicians, and as teachers in universities and schools. We represent a broad cross-section of Canada's always evolving multicultural fabric, and in particular we represent young adults who want to invest their future professional lives in music more for artistic and cultural reasons than for fame and fortune.

The radio orchestra represents the ideals to which our students aspire. It has been our nation's most eloquent proponent of Canadian music and talent. It has launched the careers of our most illustrious soloists, conductors, and composers and has presented them to the world. Our students look to the CBC for artistic leadership, investment, and endorsement, but the CBC has eroded its investment in the efforts of dedicated young artists, cutting its vibrant young performers and young composers competitions. This gives the younger listening public little chance to hear their amazing peers, and it amounts to a progressive silencing of a vital component of Canadian culture and heritage.

The music students in the nation are ample reason our national broadcaster has a moral duty to reinstate the radio orchestra as an engine of dynamic cultural vitality. There are thousands of students in university music programs and hundreds of thousands in high school bands and orchestras, civic youth orchestras, or taking private lessons. For every garage band, you can find at least as many young players devoted to concert music. The CBC should be a beacon for these young people, and the radio orchestra is the most effective and inspiring way to embody and enact their aspirations. The radio orchestra is the very heart of the radio music mandate of the CBC, and it should never be cut.

In thousands of broadcasts and through visits to northern Canadian communities such as Iqaluit, it has played an instrumental role in creating and sustaining a living musical heritage that is distinctly Canadian, but also reflects the long and diverse historical traditions that meet in a unique way in our nation. The radio orchestra has proved its value and earned its right to continue making relevant, indispensable, and lasting contributions to Canadian culture and heritage.

I am not disputing the social and cultural relevance of popular music in its moment. I am also a consumer of popular music and use it in my courses.

I salute the innovative approach to Canadian indie pop on Radio 3 and the representation of mainstream popular music on Radio One. What concerns me is that programming on Radio 2 is drifting towards a demographic model used by commercial broadcasters.

Commercial radio pinpoints pieces of the demographic puzzle, using music genres as a marketing tool to attract specific groups and pitch products to them. Over time, this approach has increasingly segregated musical genres and styles and has created a false sense that demographic groups have one-dimensional music interests that don't intersect.

CBC management seems to take an uncritical approach to the demographic orientation of commercial stations. Moreover, marketing considerations are irrelevant to the mandate of CBC Radio.

Radio 2 should not fall prey to simplistic ideas about who is listening and what kind of music they want to hear. Radio 2 should not take a supermarket approach and try to appeal to a variety of demographic groups by slotting each one somewhere in the schedule. It needs to have a clear identity so that listeners can rely on it and respect it for its commitment. It should not try to appeal to everyone on a statistical but incoherent basis.

Radio 2 should focus its mission on cultivating national identity and culture in a historical and global context. Let Radio 2 be the voice of Canada's longer musical heritage. That is a noble calling, and it will serve to educate and enrich the public, enhance our nation, and showcase it for the world. The radio orchestra has a vital role to play in this vision of CBC Radio.

Do I have about 30 seconds more?

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Schellenberger

I'll give you 30 seconds, sir.

3:50 p.m.

Professor and Director, School of Music, University of British Columbia

Dr. Richard Kurth

Thank you.

The CBC should reinstate the radio orchestra and program its new work and archived recordings more prominently and regularly--at least one hour per week. The public is proud of our national artistic resources when they know where to find them.

I urge the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage to ensure that our cultural paths can connect with our future. Please give the CBC board and management clear directives to reinstate the orchestra. It is a precious and living instrument of Canadian heritage, ready and eager to serve the public good by creating and sustaining a living legacy of Canadian music and culture.

Thank you very much.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Schellenberger

Thank you for that.

Gene Ramsbottom, please.

3:50 p.m.

As an Individual

Gene Ramsbottom

Friends, Canadians, countrymen, lend me your ears. We are in the right place at the right time. We have the opportunity and the desire to create a new CBC national radio orchestra as an institution for the 21st century that celebrates Canadian greatness in the world's cultural arts.

It has been a privilege to have been the principal clarinetist of this orchestra for 24 years and a member for 35. Yes, we all know I have an intense vested interest in keeping this orchestra alive, but my calling in life goes far beyond that.

I know that subsection 46(5) of the Broadcasting Act grants the CBC freedom from interference in its programming and sets limits on what the government and the heritage minister can do. What you are now considering will be magnificent in its cultural resonance and has nothing to do with programming interference. It can satisfy everyone.

The all-party standing committee, in concert with the minister, can offer the president of the CBC that there is a two-part solution available to you. Mr. Lacroix has it within his power to recommend that the CBC board of directors create a new subsidiary division called the CBC national radio orchestra. In tandem with the creation of this new division, the standing committee can recommend to the minister that she create a special national cultural heritage status for the CBC national radio orchestra and offer seed funding for its operations in Vancouver.

This is a timely opportunity to create a renewed vision and a renewed identity for Canada's national radio orchestra under the exciting musical leadership of conductor Alain Trudel. Such planning has to be done now, urgently, to save next season's concerts.

The CBC is also in the process of upgrading its technology base. This is a rare, singular, and challenging opportunity for our public broadcast network. Never in its history will it ever undertake such a change in technology again. Within the context of the complete transition from analog to digital services, in the next four years the CBC has to reinvent its radio frequency structure to emulate the four- or five-channel broadcasting system proven to be so successful in other countries. The model I suggest in my brief would resolve the thorny issue of incompatible programming genres and optimistically anticipate the exciting changes the digital world has to offer.

The radio orchestra is Canada's number one tool of foreign cultural diplomacy. The orchestra is experienced at touring the far north. We can, should, and must do more, and my written submission expands on this aspect of touring Canada and projecting cultural sovereignty in the north.

Put Canada's national radio orchestra to work on the world stages. Let us host joint concerts with the world's superstars like Dimitri Horostovsky, Anna Netrebenko, Cecilia Bartoli, and Rolando Villazon; and our own Canadian superstars like Ben Heppner, Louis Lortie, David Jalbert, Janina Fialkowska, Angela Chang, James Ehnes, Measha Brueggergosman, and Michel Rivard; or future stars like Simone Osborne, and many others.

As a subsidiary, the CBC national radio orchestra could perform bi-weekly television and radio shows in its own specially designated time spot on ETV, FTV, and Radio 2. That would be visionary and awe-inspiring to the youth and citizens of this country. It would be consistent with the historicity of radio orchestra productions.

None of these suggestions interfere with CBC programming content, as they are concerned with distribution and production.

Right now the “wheel of fortune” for the CBC Radio Orchestra has stopped on the “jeopardy” setting. Important decisions must be made on their long-term implications. Will it matter 50 years from now? When dealing with heritage issues of cultural stewardship, it is important and daunting to ensure that it will matter. Cultural development and evolution depend on the stepping stones laid by previous stewards. People in 1938 established the CBC Radio Orchestra because it mattered.

A renewal of that commitment will set the framework for perpetuation of Canadian music for generations to come. The classics are determined by people of a future time. Collectively you, the minister, and the government will make history.

In closing, when the Titanic sank, the orchestra went down with the ship. In an unusual move, in this case, the CBC threw the orchestra overboard first.

Thank you.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Schellenberger

Thank you.

We'll now go to Bramwell Tovey, please.

3:55 p.m.

Music Director, Vancouver Symphony Orchestra

Bramwell Tovey

Thank you very much indeed for the opportunity to speak to you today. I'm the music director of the Vancouver Symphony Orchestra. I've been a music director of Canadian orchestras since 1989. I'm also the principal guest conductor of the Los Angeles Philharmonic at the Hollywood Bowl.

I've worked in popular and jazz music fields. I've made jazz piano recordings that have been played on both the old and the new CBC. I'm also conductor and host of the New York Philharmonic's annual Summertime Classics festival at Lincoln Center.

My concerns are with CBC Radio 2 as a public broadcaster on the FM network. I do not include the developmental work on the web, such as podcasts, although I have given talks for the CBC in this format.

There's no legal role for Parliament to determine what is broadcast on CBC radio, but I believe this heritage committee should be concerned about Radio 2's current broadcasting policies, which have undergone a wholesale change without proper public debate and due scrutiny.

The Vancouver Symphony plays for over 200,000 British Columbians every year. In B.C. there is no alternative classical radio station to Radio 2. The CBC's Radio 2 is the traditional home of classical music on Canada's airwaves. Broadcasts by our orchestras and solo artists are part and parcel of the heritage of Radio 2--until now.

On Easter Sunday morning, a performance of J.S. Bach's Mass in B minor was followed by a song from Johnny Cash. Such a lurch of programming would guarantee failure at any box office in the real world. This style of programming, however, forms the core of the new schedules on CBC Radio 2 and is providing needless duplication of material that is already broadcast on other networks.

Protesting financial problems, the CBC dismantled its own celebrated 70-year-old radio orchestra, an institution born of the need to promote Canadian talent and new music. Then a few days later the network managed to find several thousand dollars to print a self-congratulatory full-page ad in The Globe and Mail newspaper. I think there are some self-evident points there.

Pink slips are handed out to distinguished radio hosts without regard for their long-standing commitments and to the way they enjoy long-term relationships with listeners. Famous names have been unceremoniously ditched with announcements laced in Orwellian double-speak about new pursuits and tremendous service. Most listeners are aware of what's going on. The network is openly pursuing an ageist agenda that seems to believe it will seduce new listeners in the 35- to 50-year-old age bracket, although exactly how that is to be done remains to be demonstrated.

Self-promoting advertisements enter our programs. In the style of commercial radio, the network mantra is endlessly chanted: “Everywhere music takes you.” As a distinguished Canadian opera singer said to me recently, “It takes me to the off button.”

In controlling the debate about Radio 2 programming, CBC has censored its own blog sites. In May 2007, when I submitted a comment to the CBC blog, it was never posted. When I asked why, I received an e-mail from a senior CBC director who wrote: “I'd be more than happy to post most of what you wrote, but do need to edit one line and want your approval to do that. We're not trying to censor you.”

Numerous independent web discussion and information sites have blossomed since it became evident that CBC wished to control the discussions on its own site, discussions that were often highly critical of Radio 2's direction. I've no idea why CBC should be afraid of open and critical debate. The lack of public discussion has caused pointless friction between Radio 2 and its customarily loyal audience.

As the great Canadian violinist, James Ehnes, pointed out in The Globe and Mail last week, the CBC's decision to program classical music in the fall between 10 and 3 on weekdays seems particularly inappropriate and misguided.

The VSO performs for 50,000 children every year and is about to open a state-of-the-art music school in downtown Vancouver. Last week the Government of Canada announced renewed and special financial support for the training of young Canadian artists, yet none of these children will hear any classical music on Radio 2 during the week, since classical music will be broadcast only during school hours.

My youngest daughter is seven years old. She's been learning the cello for the last two years. A few months ago she played Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star at a family party. Her tiny hands pressed all the strings as her bow found the sounding points on the instrument and she entered the world of self-expression afforded by the language of music. She dreams of playing in our local youth orchestra, but unfortunately CBC Radio 2 has nothing to offer her and, worse still, gives the impression from its new scheduling that it couldn't care less about this age group.

Within Radio 2 itself there is a widespread lack of confidence in the direction among staff members who are too afraid to speak out. Given the management's reluctance to accept criticism, staff are afraid to engage in real internal debate. The new fall schedules, presented as the future of the network, are barren and devoid of detail. We have no idea what's going on. It's time to take stock and re-engage the audience before the present policies dismantle what's left. A rejuvenated, curatorial concept would embrace rather than alienate Radio 2's core listeners and could revitalize the network.

In closing, independent broadcasters must listen to their shareholders. Radio 2's shareholders are the Canadian taxpayers. Until there is a full and open debate about the future of CBC Radio 2, the current dispute must rumble on, as the role of the public broadcaster is so unclear.

Thank you for listening to me.

4 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Schellenberger

Thank you.

Now we go to Jane Whiteley, please.