Evidence of meeting #30 for Canadian Heritage in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was artists.
A recording is available from Parliament.
11:30 a.m.
Liberal
Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC
Mr. Cristall, you said, and I'm quoting you, “this is a crime against art and culture”. Those are strong words.
11:30 a.m.
Gary Cristall Artist Management, As an Individual
Yes, I understand that they're strong words, but they--
11:30 a.m.
Liberal
Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC
No, I'm with you. I don't think these programs should have been cut.
11:30 a.m.
Gary Cristall Artist Management, As an Individual
Yes. When I say it's a crime, it's because it robs the future of knowing what great artists are creating today, because they may perform this work, etc., they may create this work, but the ability to preserve it forever was something that the sound recording program provided support for, which means that in a hundred years we'll still be able to listen to these, and who knows, forever.
Many of the artists creating today who benefited from this are visionary artists. They're part of the avant-garde. I know it's an old cliché, but Van Gogh never sold any paintings. He traded two, but he was not a commercial success. I guess his work should have been destroyed because it had no value. The fact of the matter is that many of the artists creating today are doing things that are going to influence artists in 10 years, in 20 years, etc. That is what is going to be lost, and for me, sir, that is a crime. It's robbery of the future, not only of the present, but of the future access of Canadians to great art created by Canadians for a paltry sum of money.
11:35 a.m.
Conservative
11:35 a.m.
Bloc
Carole Lavallée Bloc Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC
First and foremost, I must say how honoured I am to have musicians, artists appearing before us in the flesh. Indeed, the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage often hears from some of your representatives, from officials and politicians, but seldom do we see before us the raw material of art in Quebec and Canada. Let me assure you that what you have to say is immensely important. We listen to you and we drink in your words.
First, the cuts that were made last year to the Canadian Musical Diversity Program compound those that were made last year. Indeed, $25 million were cut from programs that allowed artists to tour overseas, including in the areas of theatre and dance. This government does not understand that by cutting these programs they do great damage to major cultural sectors. There are almost no more theatrical tours to other parts of the world for artists outside of Quebec, and musicians who are not into pop music will be in great difficulty in the coming months.
I would first like to ask a few questions and I would like all of you to answer. How many grants have you received from the Canadian Musical Diversity Program? How often did you get any and what were the amounts?
Let us start with Mr. Zubot.
11:35 a.m.
Musician, Owner of Drip Audio, As an Individual
Personally, I haven't directly received a lot of these grants. My first one was in 2000. I can't actually remember the specific amount, but I think it was around $15,000. Because of the success of how that grant helped that particular project, I didn't need to rely on this grant as much as maybe some people do. But the thing for me is that I started a record label that is focused on promoting creative music and I am now promoting other artists.
Since 2007, in this company that I run, 75% of the recordings have been funded by this grant. Probably 30, 40, or 50 musicians have received funding from this grant. I don't know the exact amount, but it is not a lot of money. The amount of money that it is has changed all these musicians' lives forever and has created music that will last, as Gary says, for the next hundred years.
These recordings will sell the same amount fifty years from now as they do today, because they're not driven by current trends or new, hip movements.
11:35 a.m.
Gary Cristall Artist Management, As an Individual
I don't personally receive these grants, but I provide management services to many artists who do. I didn't make a list, but I did look for an article I wrote for a B.C. publication that asked me about this, and in 2006-07 there were 16 recordings funded in British Columbia, for a total of $164,000. The following year, 2007-08, there were 26 grants awarded to B.C. artists, with a total value of $253,900. So we're talking about grants in the range of $10,000 to $15,000.
What I think is interesting is the diversity, just from British Columbia, in some of these projects. Traditional songs of Haida Gwaii, the Haida people, are not going to get funded by FACTOR, and they're not going to become what we call “chart chompers” on any commercial play. There's the world music of the Orchid Ensemble, an Asian group; very far-out contemporary classical compositions by the New Orchestra Workshop; jazz by a woman named Jodi Proznick, who's very, very good; and music by Alex Cuba, who is becoming a commercial success and is now working with Nelly Furtado.
So the range of this is enormous, from people who are recording their traditions, in the case of the Haida Gwaii singers, to people who have commercial aspirations. It's wrong to say this is for non-commercial artists. It is right to say—and we defined this when I wrote some of the guidelines for the program while I was at the Canada Council—it is music that is driven by creativity, not by commercial intent.
Now, against all odds, somehow, music driven by creativity and not by commercial intent sometimes becomes commercially viable. That's neither here nor there. The question is the intent of the artist, and that's why it deserves public funding, and those are some of the numbers in terms of grants that have been given to artists in B.C.
11:40 a.m.
Musician, As an Individual
I think I've had that once or twice, but I haven't applied that many times. I've been on about ten CDs of people who have applied and have been successful. As I said before, a lot of my work is to conduct sound design with modern dance and theatre, but I have been a practising musician for that long, and this is what I do. I'm in research and development. I create music with people, cutting-edge music using new ideas, and we are the place that most pop musicians listen to in order to get their ideas. I'll be quite simple about it, because I know people in the field. I know pop musicians. They're friends of mine, and when they're not playing pop music, which a lot of them consider work, they're listening to the music from the field of music I create in, the avant garde or instrumental music, just because that's where new sounds are created.
Also, I don't feel the government understands the value of marketing the Canadian brand this way, because there are multi-level ways you can approach the world in terms of what Canada is. We have world-class artists and musicians. You have one sitting over there. Jesse's an amazing player. We're known internationally. And we're not known internationally because the government is really out there helping us; it's because we are doing it ourselves. Therefore, we're very good at it, so you should give us more money.
October 20th, 2009 / 11:40 a.m.
NDP
Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON
I thank you gentlemen for being here this morning.
I think we're having a really important discussion, and I want to say at the outset that I'm not looking to offend anybody, whether in FACTOR or in commercial music. Some of my friends.... I'm noticing people have slipped me information as to who's getting money, and I know many of them, and I don't have a problem with that. I think the issue we need to look at is the role FACTOR plays, the role the Canada Council plays in this whole pseudo battle about how to create success.
I've applied for FACTOR grants. I've known people who have sat on FACTOR juries. FACTOR is a private industry function. It represents whatever the Canadian music industry thinks is really hot. And we know when you go to a jury they say they've got to fund these guys, they're huge, they're going to be big. How many of those acts, after their one record tanks, are never heard from again? But this is how the record industry succeeds, and there's nothing wrong with that. So when I see the minister saying that the envelope they were looking for was basically to fund artists who have no interest in developing any kinds of commercial opportunities for their music, it gives me an impression the minister thinks you guys are all just a bunch of welfare bums.
I would like to ask you, Mr. Zubot, Drip Audio, you're getting played on BBC, Radio 3, Radio 2. The Village Voice is writing about your artists, and The New York Times is too. We're looking at artists like Jane Bunnett, the Mighty Popo, Alex Cuba. These are artists of international renown. How do you compare artists like that and what you're doing with the ability of FACTOR to evaluate such emerging artists through its commercial industry?
11:45 a.m.
Musician, Owner of Drip Audio, As an Individual
I think some of the artists you just mentioned, the people who break through from the ground up and gain success.... A few of the artists on the label I run who have gained some success internationally at this point could potentially apply to FACTOR and potentially get some funding, but they would have to do it in a way where they would almost bring down what they do to a level where it would seem more commercial than it actually is.
So I think the potential from FACTOR is there on a very small level. You have to play the game, but still do what they want to do. For me to do what I want to do.... I still make recordings, but unfortunately I've been so busy promoting other people's music that I haven't thought about my own lately. But for me to make a recording and have it be what I really want it to be, I would have a hard time getting that money from FACTOR.
11:45 a.m.
NDP
Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON
Mr. Cristall, you helped run this program, but prior to that you ran the Vancouver Folk Music Festival, which was probably one of the premier festivals in North America for breaking new acts--great Canadian acts and international acts. I look at the kind of commercial success that these artists enjoyed. They were not absolutely obscure; they had really good markets. But if I drove across Canada from one end to the other and listened to commercial radio, I would probably never hear a single one of those artists on FM radio.
I'm looking at who provided the minister with his expert advice on, as you say, taking part in this commercial mugging. And I see that they relied on the general manager of the CHUM group, the vice-president of Astral Media Radio, and then some guy from Boston. Those were the three experts.
You know your artists. You know the kind of clientele you've been promoting. Would any of them ever have radio play by the CHUM group?
11:45 a.m.
Gary Cristall Artist Management, As an Individual
No, I don't think so. Jesse dealt a little bit....
The first time I worked with Rita MacNeil, we drew 40 people. It was a long time ago. The last time I worked with her, we drew 12,500 people. She didn't need a Canada Council grant when we were drawing 12,500 people. She certainly did when we were drawing 40 people. And it was that kind of support that allowed her to grow.
She is an exceptional case. There are a few people who come from the margins and then become commercial successes. It's absolutely wonderful. Every artist I manage would love to be an international commercial success sensation. They would love to sell millions of records. They would love to fill stadiums. The problem is, they are not prepared to compromise their artistic ideas to do that. They want people to come to where they're at artistically. That's the role of groups like the Canada Council, whereas FACTOR is there to support people who are prepared to make whatever accommodation is necessary to get played on CHUM FM.
The short answer to your question--and I apologize for digressing, but not really--is fundamentally, no. Commercial radio plays a very small percentage of the music made in this country. I have no idea what percentage, but if it was 3%, I would be very surprised. Most artists are never going to be played on those radio stations unless it's at three o'clock in the morning when they're not being monitored by BBM. Basically, they'll find some kid to put on whatever he wants.
11:45 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Gary Schellenberger
Make it a very short question, because you're over time already.
11:45 a.m.
NDP
Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON
As my colleague said earlier, this will have a major impact on the development of new music in Canada, yet Mr. Zubot said that he wasn't aware of anybody being consulted. And we see that the expert panel consisted of radio stations that wouldn't play you guys if you were the last people on the planet. Why do you think the government relied on such barren, commercially boring stations to decide the future of a program like a Canada Council program?
11:50 a.m.
Gary Cristall Artist Management, As an Individual
I think they wanted to kill the program. They wanted to take the money. They wanted to give it to FACTOR, partially because there had been some cuts in international marketing that they wanted to restore. Essentially, they picked a panel that would give them the decision they wanted, which is not unusual in government, I've been given to understand. And they got what they wanted. But they certainly did not consult the beneficiaries of the program. That, of course, would have been one-sided.
11:50 a.m.
Conservative
11:50 a.m.
Conservative
Dean Del Mastro Conservative Peterborough, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to our witnesses for appearing today.
As with any program, any time the government makes decisions on how the program is going to run there are going to be those who support it and those who don't. That's the strength of a democracy. There are people on both sides of an issue. There's no question that on this issue there ares going to be plenty of witnesses who come forward to indicate this was a good decision that the government made. Obviously there's no malice in the decision the government makes. We're tasked with getting the most out of government spending that we can.
When we announced this $138-million, five-year extension of the Canada music fund, we were looking to get the most out of it that we could. As you know, prior to announcing it there was a lot of uncertainty in the Canadian music industry because the fund was going to twilight in March of 2010. We've actually pushed it out a long ways and said that for five years there will be certainty in the Canadian music fund and in the Canadian music industry that is supported by the fund.
As you'd expect, I did some research before you came. I know Mr. Perera received a very small amount of money from the CMD but the rest of you have not. That's not uncommon. The Canada Council has a fairly significant amount of money: $9 million for specialized music funding. The CMD is only 5% of what it was doing. There is $30 million overall for music. As you can see, it's a very small part of what they're doing. I wasn't surprised that none of you had actually received money from it, because it was a small part of what they're doing.
I want to ask you about this point on music 10 to 20 years from now, because we want to get to a new media study. I think that things have changed quite a bit. I think the way we're going to record, produce, create, is changing, and I think it's changing very rapidly. I think the minister's inclination to put some money behind new media, the digital kind of transformation that's occurring, and the international component has to do with us trying to look forward.
I know this is a U.S. example, but I was watching television, and there was a fellow named Adam Young who has a band called Owl City. He's the only person in it. He was producing music in his bedroom on his computer, and he now has a hit song called "Fireflies". It was all stuff that he played on his computer and created with no real intention to be a commercial star. It was put on YouTube, and it then got popular.
Is it possible that we're actually looking forward? Would you say it's possible that maybe 10 to 20 years from now the effect of the change will be that we actually looked forward and saw where the change was coming, bearing in mind that most of the support for the Canada music fund and most of the support from the Canada Council never had anything to do with the CMD?
Mr. Cristall.
11:50 a.m.
Gary Cristall Artist Management, As an Individual
If I could predict what was going to be happening in the music industry in 10 to 20 years with any accuracy, I'd be a lot more wealthy than I am today. Nobody in the music industry understands what is going to happen, except for one thing. We know that artists are going to be creating music, recording music, and they are going to be disseminating the recordings of that music. That we know for sure. Whatever format it's going to be in and how it's going to be disseminated is one thing.
We also know that mostly it is not going to be recorded in people's bedrooms on their computer, although there are certainly histories of that. I go back to an American woman I worked with, Michelle Shocked, whose first record became a hit on a Sony Walkman at a folk festival in Texas. Fair enough, but most artists need to go into studios. That is where the work is done, and that isn't going to change. If that is going to change, you're going to find that many FACTOR affiliates are going to go out of business.
In terms of the Canada Council, the Canada Council has a big budget, but there is no money for sound recording. That's what we're here to say; we're not here to say that all kinds of great things are not going to be funded in terms of commissioning, touring, performance.
This was not a Canada Council program. It was a Heritage Canada program administered by Canada Council. That's why it hurts, and that's why frankly I think you made a mistake by cutting the wrong program. You should have found the money somewhere else.
It's really all I can say, except that if you think you can predict the future, we should have a long conversation about setting up a consulting company.
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
11:55 a.m.
Liberal
Scott Simms Liberal Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL
Thank you.
Mr. Cristall, in your submission you talked about the program itself. It was a program that gave grants as opposed to loans. Could you provide more detail about that? You also talked about peer groups. I don't feel there are enough programs that rely on peer groups for the awarding of grants or contributions. Can you comment on that?
11:55 a.m.
Gary Cristall Artist Management, As an Individual
First, FACTOR technically does not give grants to make records; they give grants for other things. They give loans. Those loans are forgivable—I think you get three in a lifetime. You're supposed to pay them back in CD sales, at a buck a sale. Some people do, some don't. At the higher level, you'll find that FACTOR essentially is a bank that loans money for free to big labels for popular artists who get the money from FACTOR and pay it back every time. But it's interest-free. If I could access interest-free money, I'd be very interested.