Canadian Heritage Committee on Nov. 3rd, 2009

[Jean-Pierre Blais]

The challenge there is that the number of six and a half months is based on when the application enters the building. That's how the current system tracks it. A correct service standard mechanism might track that, but would more likely focus on when the application is complete. Therefore, we would be comparing apples and oranges otherwise.

There is a date within the 6.5 months, however, that includes the time when the application is complete. The idea is not to make the time longer, but to be more efficient. But I caution about comparing it with the 6.5 months, because that's just a number on how long it takes when the application is entered into the system; it's not a service standard. A service standard is something completely different.

[Tim Uppal, Conservative, Edmonton—Sherwood Park, AB]

Okay, but with a completed application—one that's been checked and completed, that type of thing—would the service standard itself be quicker under the new program in 2010?

[Pablo Sobrino]

We expect that things will accelerate because there will be less error if we can get the online applications. That will take more time to do than just 2010, but that's where we're going: to have that error-checking at the front end so the client sees it right away.

And the risk assessment tool is meant to accelerate the process of what the officer does, in terms of assessing risk, and automates it, to a certain extent. That will also accelerate the process. So we do expect to see improvement.

The move to multi-year agreements will be seen by individual clients as an improvement, and the use of grants, as well—which is what we're trying to increase—will decrease the reporting burden.

I can't give you an estimate of how many cases will be affected, but there are enough cases to make the following significant. If you haven't finished reporting what you've expended your resources on in the last year, we can't start giving you more money until you've reported on your results of the previous year. So that's a risk assessment piece.

Contribution agreements require a lot of reporting. Grant agreements do not require the reporting. So that's part of the move to lessen the burden. In fact, one of the biggest pieces of feedback to the blue ribbon panel—which, I just want to be clear, was government-wide and sponsored by the president of the Treasury Board—was the reporting burden that clients face, which slows everything down.

[Tim Uppal, Conservative, Edmonton—Sherwood Park, AB]

The motion that we have in front of us reads as follows:

The committee will study the causes and find practical solutions to the disbursement problem of the department.

There are changes coming in 2010. You also said that within about 12 months, you will assess the overall results and make any adjustments. Can you talk about that?

Personally, I feel it would be more prudent to see what the department's review looks like after you've made those changes, because there are changes coming and the department is going to look at them.

Could you tell me a little bit about what the department will be looking at?

[Pablo Sobrino]

The big starting point is April 1 of next year, which is when the new transfer payment policy will be fully implemented and we will have the service standards published. One year after that, we will have the results of how quickly we are able to provide service on each of our programs. So we'll have the data at that point to assess how much improvement.

The other thing is, just simply, that you manage what you measure. So if we start to consistently measure service standards, we start to manage to them, which will be an important piece.

In the past, as Jean-Pierre has mentioned, some programs have service standards and not all of them measure them the same way. We have to bring that all into line and that's what we have under way for April 1 this year.

So I would expect to see results around that on April 1, 2011.

[Tim Uppal, Conservative, Edmonton—Sherwood Park, AB]

Would you agree that it would be good for this committee to review those numbers at that time, once we have data and once there are numbers to look at?

[Jean-Pierre Blais]

We'd be most happy to explain it to you, because in a sense, when I was speaking earlier about communications being important, you're also communicating to people who benefit from our programs. We're more than happy to come back when those standards are published there, and we will be reporting on them. But it's not just one year later; managers will have systems in place to know exactly where they are. I will have access to information.

I'm sure you're getting lots of calls from time to time from beneficiaries. We get them too, and frankly, I'd rather not be managing those sorts of issues. I'd rather be improving the system, because it's important.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Thank you.

This is the last round.

Mr. Simms, and then it will be the Conservative side, and then Mr. Angus goes last.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, gentlemen.

I had my own experience this past season. My hometown celebrated its hundred-year anniversary and they received money from Canadian Heritage as a result. Maybe it's beneficial to the committee or not, but what they did--which I would implore any group like that to do--is instead of just picking up the application to be filled out first, they actually visited the office of Canadian Heritage and they were walked through the process. And it was far and above a great exercise.

One of the issues, too, is that you're dealing with volunteer fatigue. That's why it's so important to have that application process so simplified. Now, I can't give you specific examples of how you're going to do that, because an application is an application. At some point it just has to be--for want of a better term--dumbed down. It's the only term I have, but I hate using it; it's not really an apt description, but you get the idea. It's plain-speak, and I think you touched on that a little while ago. You don't want to be in a position where you're doing a lot of that backfilling, we'll say, so I understand that.

Maybe you should have some kind of a committee to look at the application process, but in that committee have somebody from the volunteer sector to do that. It's very difficult.

You mentioned earlier about a pilot project. You have a couple of pilot projects that are ongoing or finished. At what stage are they? Can you give me an example?

[Pablo Sobrino]

I'll give you a couple of examples.

For instance, on the online application--although this is a program that is a little bit different--we have CAVCO, the Canadian Audio-Visual Certification Office, which has automated from start to finish the process for people to get certification so they can get a tax credit for audio-visual productions. That's something that's taken us a year and a half to put in place. I believe it's in the final test phase and evaluation by clients as to whether it works. So that's in place and that was one pilot project.

We are now moving on to a couple of programs and trying to develop online systems for those programs. We also focused on....

I can give you the list of programs.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

No, that's fine. I just wanted the one quick example.

[Jean-Pierre Blais]

What's interesting is that when we go to mechanized ways of dealing with clients...and by the way, it's not to remove that personal contact. Some programs cost a little bit more to deliver because we have regional offices, but we want those regional offices because it's important to help those groups understand our system.

But once you move on an automated system in terms of your forms being online, what you realize is the first step is to reinvent your business processes. And we have, in the past--because we've always done it this way, which is not a reason--asked for too much information, information that we didn't really need or utilize. So when we exchange with the volunteer groups or whatever groups, even the for-profit sector, we are now more sensitive to asking for things that are useful for our application process and not just doing it because we've always done it that way.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

Thank you.

You mentioned the stimulus money. Can you also give me an example of how some of this extra money, in budgetary terms...? Obviously, we're talking about something that's in supplementary and is not part of the A-base budget. Is that correct?

I need one example—my time is running short—of what you're spending on right now.

[Jean-Pierre Blais]

The cultural spaces program was literally doubled in the economic action plan, from $30 million to $60 million.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

What is the process by which you decide that the cultural spaces program is the one to receive stimulus? Do you put it in the context of the economy?

[Jean-Pierre Blais]

That's a budget decision. It's in the budget. Frankly, it's quite remarkable how fast the whole public service was able to turn that around and go to Treasury Board.

Perhaps it was the urgency of the matter. A lot of the rules were simplified so that we could get it through. We're reporting on it constantly.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

Was it based on need or efficiency?

[Jean-Pierre Blais]

That was a political choice in the budget. They decided that cultural infrastructure was important for the economic stimulus of the country, and the program was doubled.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

The minister's office had input to do that.

[Jean-Pierre Blais]

The Minister of Finance stood up and announced the doubling of that.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

No, I realize that. What I'm talking about is the actual putting of money into programs: you know, “The Shovel's at the Door”, “A Fistful of Shovels”, the whole bit.

[Jean-Pierre Blais]

Well, across government everybody said that if we were going to have an impact with the economic plan, we had to get on with it. Speaking for our department, we did.

[Pablo Sobrino]

I was just going to say that the cultural spaces program is a program for which there is far more demand than we have resources. So we had lots of shovel-ready projects that we knew clients were ready to get at, and they also had partners.

[Jean-Pierre Blais]

It was an existing program. It's a little easier in those cases.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

That's what I'm trying to get at here. Was it a question of efficiency or a question of demand? You're saying that it was both.