Canadian Heritage Committee on Nov. 24th, 2009

[Fernando Forcucci, Immediate Past President, Order Sons of Italy of Canada]

Good afternoon, Mr. Chair. My name is Fernando Forcucci, and I am the immediate past president of the Order Sons of Italy of Canada. I won't bore you with too many details, just a few.

As stated by many honourable members of the Canadian government, this bill is not just about Italians. It is about making a wrong into a right for all Canadians, because most of those interned were Canadian citizens. Canadians of Italian origin like me are made to feel like second-class citizens by my government, which chooses to apologize to other ethnic Canadians, such as the Japanese Canadians and Chinese Canadians, but not to the Italian Canadians.

I've been involved with this file for about 20 years. The spring of 2005 was fantastic for the Italian community, because the government of the day announced that it was willing to resolve this file. After months of negotiation, and with our community united, in November 2005 an agreement in principle was signed by the Canadian government and the four senior organizations: the National Congress of Italian Canadians, the Order Sons of Italy, CIBPA, and La Fondation Communautaire Canadienne-Italienne du Québec.

It was announced that an agreement was reached in principle under the ACE program, which provided for a full settlement in the sum of $12.5 million, which was to be administered for the Italian community by the NCIC foundation. To date, the community is still waiting. We have met with many honourable members of the present government to try to resolve this file, but to no avail. In June 2006, the government of the day eliminated the entire ACE agreement without consulting the Italian community, and it created the CHRP program.

Furthermore, the administration of funds is by Canadian Heritage under CHRP, whereas the Japanese Canadians and Ukrainian Canadians administer their own funds. Does this government not trust our community? Again, I and my community feel like second-class Canadians.

As the immediate past president of the Order Sons of Italy of Canada, and as a member of one of the oldest national organizations in Canada--it was founded in 1915--I and the Order Sons of Italy fully support Bill C-302 and sincerely hope that the file will bring closure to the Italian internment issue.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

I think that is it for speakers on the bill.

You have the first question, Mr. Rodriguez.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I would like to draw your attention to the fact that we have with us today some of the most eminent representatives of the Italian community, people who are highly respected and who carry out impressive work. I would like to thank them for joining us here today.

Mr. Chairman, I would also ask you to ensure that the members of the committee treat the witnesses with respect. I did not appreciate the way in which you chaired the first round of questions, allowing the Conservatives to make five-minute speeches, leaving no time for the witnesses to respond. These people are here today to talk to us, and I hope that, regardless of what they do in life, they will be given the opportunity to say everything they have to say.

I have a quick question for all of the witnesses. Please give a yes or no answer: do you support the bill?

[Voices]

Yes.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

There is unanimous agreement.

Just for the record, all these important groups are supporting this bill. The other day CIBPA said it was supporting this bill.

Help me to understand something. If all of the major associations—associations which furthermore enjoy a good working relationship—support this bill, how can it be said to divide the community, as the government claims?

Perhaps, you can answer, Mr. Sciascia.

[Antonio Sciascia]

It is not the bill that divides the community, it is the Community Historical Recognition Program which has caused such a rift within the community, because people are unaware of its existence.

Two senators came to visit Quebec City two weeks ago. At that meeting, no one was aware of the existence of such a program. Is it a program that was designed strictly for Toronto? We are wondering.

This program makes no sense because the members appointed to the representative committees in no way represent the Italian Canadian community. Not at all! If you look at the members' resumés, you can see that they were never involved in the cases of people interned during the Second World War.

I do not know how the minister operates nor why he decided to shut out the organizations that have represented the community for the last 35 years, and even up to 100 years in some cases.

How did he decide to put aside these organizations and appoint people who are in absolutely no way representative?

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

Thank you. I must interrupt you, because I have very little time, I only have five minutes.

Mr. Colavecchio, I believe you wanted to add something.

[Nino Colavecchio]

I wanted to add something and answer a question that Ms. Lavallée asked Mr. Pacetti earlier on. In fact, the question was who administers the funds, and I believe there is a connection to your question, Mr. Rodriguez.

The National Congress of Italian Canadians made commitments at the outset. I headed up those negotiations for almost two years. We made a commitment at the outset to ensure that all funds that would be paid out would be administered by the board of a foundation that would represent all the community associations. It was not restrictive, we were open to it. We named the four main associations, but we were not restrictive.

We did not wonder whether or not these funds would be managed by the National Congress of Italian Canadians, as the funds were to be managed by the Italian community represented by a foundation made up of the major community organizations.

If there was any attempt to divide the community, it did not come from our side. It did not come from the community. In fact, I challenge the members of this committee to find any aspects of the bill that the community does not agree with. It is—

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

Then I would like to understand the following: in your opinion, if this bill is important to you, why can the community not manage the funds? Why does it have to be done by the other organization?

[Nino Colavecchio]

From our perspective, it has been clear from the beginning. We believe and we are convinced that we have a foundation that is able to take in the funds. During the last general meeting of the National Congress of Italian Canadians, we voted in favour of a proposal to open the board to other associations. We do not believe there is any problem in managing that, and Mr. Sciascia proved that in his comments. We have managed much larger amounts than that in the past.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

That is also what I believe.

Last week, representatives of the Italian-Canadian Community Advisory Committee appeared and told us that they were here to represent the minister. Then they told us they were here to do their work. I asked them what their work was, but I never got an answer.

What is their work?

[Nino Colavecchio]

It is an advisory committee for the Community Historical Recognition Program. In fact, the Italian-Canadian Community Advisory Committee does not represent any organization.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

I'm sorry, but I have to end it there.

Go ahead, Ms. Lavallée.

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Let us carry on in the same vein, because I asked the question of the Italian-Canadian Community Advisory Committee. That is the name appearing on the official documents. Who plays the leadership role in Canada? Their answer was no one.

Is the leadership role actually played by the National Congress of Italian Canadians?

[Nino Colavecchio]

I believe Mr. Sciascia can demonstrate that fact.

[Antonio Sciascia]

The National Congress of Italian Canadians has been taking concrete actions since 1972. If you do your homework, you will see that the first agreement signed between Quebec and Italy was a reciprocal agreement on pensions. The congress negotiated that agreement and was instrumental in getting it signed.

Following that, there was the repatriation of the Constitution. The National Congress of Italian Canadians tabled the brief in favour of the repatriation of the Constitution, and afterwards, we also took a position on multiculturalism. Tons of briefs were prepared and tabled with Parliament on every aspect of life, not only the aspect of—

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

I want to move quickly. You understand that I have other questions to ask you. Does the congress play a leadership role within the Italian community? Answer me with a yes or no.

[Antonio Sciascia]

Yes, absolutely, without a doubt.

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

You all agree? Mr. Forcucci, do you agree?

[Fernando Forcucci]

Yes.

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Mr. Campione, do you agree? Does the congress play a leadership role, yes or no?

[Dominic Campione]

Yes.

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Thank you.

[Dominic Campione]

It's very important, though, and I only have two seconds, if I may.

During all the negotiations that happened after the agreement in principle, the contact or point of reference of the government was the National Congress of Italian Canadians. We were talking and we were building. We had that consensus and we involved every single signatory in our discussions.

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Another thing was said behind the scenes: it was said by some that is was not worth compensating the Italians who were interned because in any case, they were fascists. I will allow you to answer, one at a time.