Canadian Heritage Committee on Nov. 24th, 2009

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Welcome to the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage, meeting number 38. Pursuant to the order of reference of Friday, March 6, 2009, we are considering of Bill C-302, an act to recognize the injustice that was done to persons of Italian origin through their enemy alien designation and internment during the Second World War, and to provide for restitution and promote education on Italian-Canadian history.

Our first witness is Mr. Pacetti. Would you please make your presentation, sir?

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Good morning colleagues. It is a little different and nerve-wracking to be on this side of the table, but I do hope you will be gentle with me.

I don't want to repeat what I've said in Parliament during second reading and during the debate on the private member's bill, but there are a few areas I want to address.

There is no doubt that injustices were done to persons of Italian origin through their enemy alien designation during the Second World War.

Basically, I want to talk about the questions that may surround the way the internment was conducted. We are still not sure as to the number of internees there were. There were different estimates, but we start with the number of 6,000 people who were originally arrested. Some were held overnight, some were held up to three or four years, and those are normally the people we called interned.

We have a pretty hard number as to how many were sent to Petawawa. I think 100% of these individuals were male, taken as young as 16 years old and as old as 70 years old. The funny thing here is that they were not all Italians. For some, it was simply because their name ended in a vowel.

Many people with French names were arrested.

The exact number of people in Petawawa...there are estimates of up to 700, but there were also some other detainees in three other camps. There was a camp, as it turns out, on Saint Helen's Island and there were two camps in Fredericton. Some of those were transferred to Petawawa, some were never transferred anywhere and we sort of lost track. There could be over 1,000 internees that we are not aware of, so that is also a problem.

To put it into context, in the 1940s, when this happened, there were about 112,000 Canadians of Italian origin. I think I have a stat here of 40,000 actually born in Canada. So you're talking about...let's go with the number 700 internees out of a possible 112,000 Canadians of Italian origin. To put it in context, in the U.S. there were only 228 interned out of roughly 300,000 Americans of Italian origin.

I want to talk about the impact on people's lives. We forget about the impact this has had on people's lives. We're talking about the 1940s. The culture was different and times were different. These were immigrants. Again, the people who were interned were not necessarily all immigrants. Some had been here for generations and didn't even speak any Italian, but were accused because they had an Italian name.

I would simply like to read an excerpt of an article.

It is written in English, but it gives a good idea of Italian cultural reality at that time.

It says:

But my grandmother didn't speak with her daughter about the internment until the 1950s, and then only briefly. “There was no reason to discuss it,” my grandmother, an American citizen of English descent, says unquestioningly. “We put it out of our minds and behind us. I didn't tell any of the children until they were grown. We were so ashamed.”

That is basically the cultural aspect behind it. This was a grandmother speaking.

If you read further on in the article, it says:

When my grandfather died in 1957, the story of precisely what he was thinking...died with him, as he wanted. My grandmother will say only that he was terribly depressed during his weeks there, that he feared the ruin of his career, that his health had declined.

A lot of the stories that are being told are actually from people who were not even at those internment camps; they are stories told by the families. They were affected but were not present in the internment camps.

Some were basically arrested because they were sons of Italian parents. Believe it or not, the majority of them were illiterates.

They were accused of being spies. They were illiterate but they were accused of being spies. Imagine families receiving mail that was marked “POW”. At that time,

everybody was looking at their next-door neighbour's mail and who came in and who came out. Here you are, you receive a letter that's marked in big red letters, POW. How do you think that affected your family? You're talking about people who were arrested. Had it been for a week or more, you're talking about sole breadwinners, people who in those days had to bring home the pay, and if they didn't bring home the pay you lost your home. You didn't have money to pay the rent.

Unfortunately, the stories continued even after they were released. There were people who lost their businesses, there were rumours, innuendoes, and all kinds of stories that kept going, so they destroyed families.

That is why many people from this community changed their names. The community lost many professionals, physicians or doctors, because an entire generation was lost. Obviously, this generation was deprived of its rights and freedoms.

Just quickly, the bill is requesting an apology. I think it's pretty clear. To speak as a non-partisan, the Liberal Party had a chance. They never decided to apologize. I want to acknowledge that—I have a copy of the speech—in 1990, November 4, Prime Minister Mulroney, in front of the National Congress of Italian Canadians and the Canadian Italian Business and Professional Association, called the event that happened during the internment “legally wrong and immoral”, but he never officially apologized in the House of Commons. I know this is what this bill wants to do. I think that's what we want to focus on.

This bill is simply asking for recognition of the unfair treatment suffered by Canadians of Italian origin.

In terms of precedents, we're not creating a precedent. There have been official apologies made to the Japanese community, in 1988. There were official apologies, to many of you who were here in 2006, to the Chinese Canadians. There were also some apologies for the 1914 Komagata Maru incident. I think there was another one for the 1939 St. Louis incident. There were other apologies issued, not all of them in the House of Commons. I don't want to necessarily parallel the apology also given to the first nations, but that also creates a precedent. So there have been other apologies in the House of Commons.

In terms of compensation, my bill doesn't specify a specific amount. Basically the premise is to try to educate Canadians and especially Italian Canadians who don't know about these incidents. I think anything that goes about educating our population will not hurt, so that we don't repeat the sins of the past in the future. Again, I want to repeat that this is all about Canadians apologizing to Canadians. It's not Canadians apologizing to Italians, which I've heard being spoken of here before. I want members around the table to keep that in mind. This has nothing to do with Italians. It's Canadians of Italian origin, but it's mainly Canadians committing injustices to Canadians.

I thank you for your time. I'm open to questions. I don't want to take too much time because I know when I'm sitting on the other side of the table you sort of tune out.

I'm ready for questions, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Thank you.

Mr. Rodriguez is first.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for the initiative, Mr. Pacetti.

The Italian community has played an extraordinary role in Canada's development, that is clear. Today, it is part of the Canadian social fabric. For that reason and for many others, this bill is relevant and necessary, because the community suffered greatly during this dark period. That is why it is important that we discuss this, debate it, and ideally, pass this bill.

The opposition parties, therefore the Liberal Party, the Bloc and the NDP, support it. Only the Conservative government is against the bill. Last week, the Conservatives told us to my great surprise that this bill would divide the Italian community. I would like to hear your comments on that, because personally, I feel the opposite. I feel this bill will pull the community together, as it seeks to obtain an official apology from Parliament as well as specific actions to follow that, as set out in the bill.

In your opinion, is this a bill that will divide the community, as the Conservatives say, rather than unite it through concrete action?

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Yes, Italians helped build Canada, but Canada was built by immigrants. Therefore, I do not believe we should target the Italian community in particular. This bill is doing justice to a community that deserves it. As I was saying in my comments, we have apologized to the Japanese and the Chinese, but there are other communities that expect to receive apologies as well. Is the community united? Yes. Is there 100% unanimity? No. However, I believe it is about 95%.

You will be hearing presentations from other Italian community organizations. In fact, in all the work that has been done in the past by the National Congress of Italian-Canadians, all of the major Italian Canadian organizations in Canada were included. Therefore, on the topic of divisions, I do not see any. There are always particular individuals who have difficulties. That is true even in Parliament, when there are debates between the parties. I believe this is normal. Several Conservatives supported the bill, but I think that perhaps some of them do not understand what happened. In fact, the Conservatives have always led the way in offering official apologies.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

Allow me to interrupt you, because we do not have much time.

In 2005, there was an agreement in principle. I see several people in the room who were part of those discussions or negotiations on the agreement in principle. Is the process the same, in a way? Will the various organizations that play a fundamental role within the community—we will be speaking with them later on—be included in the negotiations, and at the end, will everything be managed by the national congress?

For example, last week, the CIBPA said they wanted to be included in the negotiations. Personally, I see no problem with that, because several groups negotiated the agreement, and afterwards, there was an umbrella organization to manage the comprehensive agreement.

Is this where we should be headed?

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

Yes. Agreements were reached in the past with the National Congress of Italian Canadians. The CIBPA indicated that it wanted to continue to take part in negotiating agreements. I agree that it should continue to do so. However, I do not think it should be specifically mentioned.

It's going to defeat the purpose.

I do not think that we need to list five or six different organizations. The CIBPA is mentioned in all presentations made by the congress. There are other organizations in Quebec. There is the Italian-Canadian Community Foundation. There is the Casa d'Italia, which brings together all Italian immigrants, and the Order Sons of Italy of Canada, which will be making a presentation. I therefore think that there is unanimity within those organizations.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Madam Lavallée.

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Who will assume the leadership of the negotiations and the foundation? There is talk of restitution, so money will be paid out. Which of the four major organizations that we have referred to will take the lead?

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

First of all, we want to obtain an official apology.

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Let us assume that has been done. Let us imagine what would follow.

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

The second step would involve restitution. Negotiations would have to be held with the National Congress of Italian Canadians, a national organization that represents all the other Italian Canadian groups. Some organizations are stronger in some regions, but I do think that we have a consensus.

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Therefore, restitution would be negotiated with the congress.

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

It would be negotiated with the National Congress of Italian Canadians, as is clearly stated in the bill.

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Very well.

As for the rest, for example, the educational foundation that is proposed under paragraph 4(2)(a), who will be in charge of that?

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

Excuse me?

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

In the bill, paragraph 4(2)(a) refers to an educational foundation.

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

That is a good question. The National Congress of Italian Canadians would be in charge, through a committee that has already been struck. A foundation has already been established with several representatives from each organization, such as the Order Sons of Italy, which would have two members. All in all, there would be between 10 and 14 members on the board of directors of the foundation. The following witnesses can talk to you about that at further length. I will not personally negotiate that part of the bill.

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

I simply want to understand—

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

If you wish, I can give you the details, but—

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

I want to make sure that I have understood. You have talked to me about the organization that has been established—

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

A foundation was created to manage those funds, because people had been expecting to receive them for the past three or four years. The community had already considered the possibility of a recession three years ago and had indicated that it had established the foundation, which would be made up of several organizations. It had already been decided that the foundation would include two members—

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

What is the name of that foundation?

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

If I am not mistaken, it is the NCIC Foundation. It has already been established.

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

What will its makeup be?