Canadian Heritage Committee on Nov. 24th, 2009

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Thank you.

Mr. Calandra.

[Paul Calandra, Conservative, Oak Ridges—Markham, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I had the honour of heading out to Halifax this year and seeing where my parents got off the boat. My dad had a grade six education, and my mom had a grade three education. My aunts and uncles all came in the 1950s and early 1960s.

My dad died very early, but he accomplished an extraordinary amount. He was buried with a Canadian flag in his casket.

I talked to my uncle the other day about this. We had a long conversation. There's never been any sorrow or embarrassment in our household in talking about this. His words to me were profound. He said, “Apologize for what--for allowing a million of us to come to this country? You're sitting in Parliament. I'm sitting in a really nice, beautiful home. I'm retired. My kids have all gone to university. We've lived an extraordinary life. You've been back to Calabria. You've been to Roiano. The way it is now is certainly not the way it was in the 1950s when we left there. Without this country you wouldn't have had anywhere near the advantages you have now.”

I was at the Markham Centennial Bocce Club on Sunday. We were opening up this brand-new bocce club in Markham. If you had told me when we first moved to Markham in the 1970s that there would be an Italian mayor, an Italian member of Parliament, three Italian councillors and a regional councillor, and I'd be cutting the ribbon for the Markham Centennial Bocce Club, I would have told you you were crazy; it was not going to happen.

On what concerns me about this, I do believe it's divisive. At that event on Sunday nobody said that Canada needed to apologize for anything it had done. Every single one of them--like you, like Ms. Minna--is a proud Canadian. They're proud of their Italian heritage.

But what troubles me most about this bill--and I talked about it in Parliament--is there can be no denying it was Liberal Prime Minister Mackenzie King who interred the Italians. Liberal Prime Minister Louis St. Laurent refused to apologize to Italians. Liberal Prime Minister Lester B. Pearson refused to apologize to Italians. Liberal Prime Minister Pierre Elliott Trudeau refused to apologize to Italians. Jean Chrétien, a Liberal Prime Minister, refused to apologize to Italian Canadians.

Ms. Minna talked about being the president of the congress in 1992. One year later she sat in Parliament and could not get Jean Chrétien to apologize to Italian Canadians. As a cabinet minister, she could not get her cabinet colleagues to agree to apologize. Prime Minister Martin refused to apologize to Italian Canadians. It was only a Conservative Prime Minister who took the step of recognizing what had happened. He apologized directly to the community, said there were mistakes made, and on behalf of the Government of Canada he apologized for the mistakes made.

To say that this bill is not divisive, I simply can't agree with you. In my discussions with all the people I represent--and I represent a very large Italian community in Markham, Richmond Hill, and King--they're proud of the fact that our government recently provided funding through the community historical recognition program, I think it was $5 million, so we could educate people and recognize some of the history of what happened.

They recognize this bill for what it is, frankly--an attempt to divide the community and gain back some kind of support within the Italian community that the Liberal Party feels it has lost. It's a desperate attempt to divide Canadians along ethnic lines yet again. That's all this bill does. This bill doesn't address how Italian Canadians feel. It simply seeks to extract millions of dollars for someone else's pet project--perhaps your pet project--and continue the divisiveness.

I ask you, why did the Liberal prime ministers I mentioned--Mackenzie King, St. Laurent, Pearson, Trudeau, Chrétien, and Martin--turn their backs on Italians?

If it's true that the only way Italians can feel better in this country is if they get an apology in Parliament, and that the apology of the Prime Minister of Canada in 1988 isn't enough for them, why did the Liberal Party turn their back on Italians for so many years? You have been elected longer than I have, yet you chose a minority Parliament to bring forward a bill that you knew would be divisive. You had massive majorities for many years, yet for all those years you chose to ignore the Italian people. Now you bring this forward because you think you can do more damage in the minority Parliament and create more division in the community. That's what I find troubling about the bill.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

We've gone past the time.

[Paul Calandra, Conservative, Oak Ridges—Markham, ON]

Sorry, I didn't realize my time had run out.

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Point of order. I have to say that prime ministers in the past who did not deal with this were wrong.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

It's not a point of order.

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

He's attacking the community, and I think I need to deal with it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

It's not a point of order.

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

I'll deal with it when my turn comes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Mr. Pacetti, would you like--

[Paul Calandra, Conservative, Oak Ridges—Markham, ON]

On a point of order, I was not at any point attacking the community, and I think she should apologize to me for that comment.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

That's debate.

Mr. Pacetti, would you care to answer--

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

With all due respect, I'm not sure how this committee runs, but we should respect the witnesses enough to allow them to answer a question. There were a couple of things said I take issue with.

I never said this bill was going to make me feel better. It might make you feel better, but it's not going to make me feel better. I think it's just going to make Italians aware of what happened in the past. The Liberal governments in the past did not apologize. I said that in my speech, If you would listen. The Liberal Party did not do the job, but the Conservatives are the ones that have been divisive. They chose to apologize to the Chinese community, the Japanese community, and the Ukrainian community, without apologizing to the Italian community. There is no divisiveness in the Italian community; it's the Conservatives that have this divisiveness.

The Italian community is about more than about bocce clubs. The problem is not with your dad who got here and made a success of it. My dad was a success also. I think Dean was saying his dad made a success of it. That's not the point. The point is that Italians who came here had to change their names and today we don't even know that they're Italians. These were professionals who came here in the forties and the thirties. We lost a whole generation of professionals. These are people who could have been in Parliament. They probably were in Parliament, had Italian names, but were forced to change them. That's the issue.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, members.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Thank you.

We're going to recess for five minutes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Welcome to the second part of our meeting today.

We welcome the National Congress of Italian Canadians. I'm going to introduce Michael Stante.

Like I said the other day, my Italian isn't very good. And sometimes people have problems with my name.

If you would, sir, please introduce the various people as our witnesses.

[Michael Stante, President, National Congress of Italian Canadians]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I just have a little preamble before I introduce everyone, if I may.

Mr. Chairman, members of the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage, on behalf of all of the members of the Canadian Italian community here today, I would like to thank you for giving us this opportunity to appear before you today. I would also like to formally thank all of the members of Parliament—members of all different political stripes—who have supported and who continue to support this bill.

My name is Michael Stante. I'm the current national president of the National Congress of Italian Canadians, herewith referred to as NCIC. I am also a former president of the CIBPA, Quebec region, and former vice-president of both the NCIC Quebec and the Italian Canadian Community Foundation.

Joining me at this table are Mr. Nino Colavecchio, former national president of the NCIC, former president of the national federation of CIBPA, former president of the CIBPA Montreal, or Quebec, and former president of NCIC Quebec region; and Mr. Dominic Campione, former president of the NCIC, director of the Canadian Ethnocultural Council, and member of the CIBPA Toronto. Both Mr. Colavecchio and Mr. Campione will be presenting the NCIC's position with reference to Bill C-302.

Representing the Italian Canadian Community Foundation, we have Mr. Galella and Mr. Tony Sciascia. Mr. Sciascia is the current president of the NCIC Quebec region, former national president of the NCIC, and governor of the Italian Canadian Community Foundation. Mr. Mario Galella is the former president of the Italian Canadian Community Foundation. It is Mr. Tony Sciascia who will be making the presentation on behalf of the foundation.

Representing the Casa D'Italia, we have Mr. Ciro Cucciniello, who is the longest-serving board member of the Casa D'Italia. I only have to assume that sooner or later he's going to be president.

We also are joined by Mr. Fernando Forcucci, the immediate past president of the Sons of Italy of Canada. He will be presenting the position of the Sons of Italy.

If I've taken the time to identify at some length the standing of these members of our community, it is only to impress upon you that these are individuals with longstanding community service and for some of whom determined debate has been ongoing for 20 years or more. So it's nothing new to them.

I would like to point out, as shown by our collective presence here at this table, that the NCIC once again is seeking to forge a consensus of the various interest groups in the Canadian-Italian community, much in the same manner as it did when we negotiated the ACE program.

Mr. Chairman, with your permission, I would like to call upon Mr. Nino Colavecchio and Mr. Dominic Campione to present the position of the national congress.

[Nino Colavecchio, Former President, National Congress of Italian Canadians]

Thank you for having us here.

Mr. Chair, at the onset, I would like to state clearly that the National Congress of Italian Canadians is a non-partisan group. You will find within our group members of every political party in Canada. As such, we are not here today to play party politics but to continue in a quest that began well over 20 years ago for our community and thus for this congress.

The National Congress of Italian Canadians is not a club or an association. It is an umbrella group that represents the Italian community across the country. In fact, every Italian-Canadian association that has spoken to this committee has representation within the congress in some manner.

The NCIC was able to build a consensus within the Italian community when it was the lead group in the negotiations with the Canadian government for the ACE program, and when that program was cancelled the NCIC maintained the channels of communication open with various community groups in order to continue to lobby for this cause.

Some of us at this table have been instrumental in keeping this issue on the forefront for over 20 years. The document that we are tabling today—

[A voice]

No, we didn't table it.

[Nino Colavecchio]

We didn't table the document. We have a document that is available for you, which is a report on this long journey. We hope this journey will culminate in the adoption of Bill C-302.

The NCIC emphatically supports Bill C-302. The bill responds to the historical demands of our community, in that it provides for an apology and financial redress.

It is important to note that the apology is an essential element in closing this unfortunate episode in Canadian history. Although then Prime Minister Mulroney did in fact apologize at an event held by the Italian community, a formal apology by the Canadian government through a motion in the House of Commons was never received, and it has been pointed out that such an apology was given to other communities for events of this nature.

The financial redress takes on a particular significance, in that it will serve to commemorate the event and to ensure that it is not forgotten. Historians rightfully say that those who do not learn the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them. We believe that educating Canadians on this event and on the positive contribution of Italian Canadians to the evolution of Canada will serve not only the Italian-Canadian community, but all Canadians who have been harmed by ethnic, racial, or political profiling.

I now give the floor to my colleague and former president, Dominic Campione.

[Dominic Campione, Former President, National Congress of Italian Canadians]

I'm not sure how far “former” goes; that could be the first president or the immediate past president. I'm the immediate past president. My name appears on the signing document of the agreement in principle.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman and members, for giving us the opportunity to speak on this most important issue for the Italian-Canadian community.

We are here before you, although with gratitude and passion, disheartened and dismayed at the injustices done to 17,000 Canadians of Italian origin who were designated as enemy aliens under the War Measures Act and who constantly had to report to the RCMP. There were 6,000 men and women arrested and 700 interned. Children from the age of 16 and adults all the way up to 70 were there. Doctors, lawyers, priests, carpenters, bakers, contractors--you name it, they were there, averaging 16 months to five years in Petawawa, in St. Helen's, in Fredericton.

In all of these, no one was ever charged. They had no right to counsel--as a lawyer, I think that's very important--and no fair hearing or trial. A whole community under siege, discriminated against and devastated, has, over 69 years and five and a half months, from June 10, 1940, not seen these injustices corrected. When is this terrible wrong going to turn into a right?

We firmly believe that the agreement in principle signed by the Government of Canada on November 12, 2005, under the ACE program, with its full funding administered by the NCIC foundation, was the correct course of action in correcting this wrong. This agreement between the Government of Canada and the four signatories on behalf of the Italian-Canadian community was the culmination of many years of work by the NCIC and others on the internment issue. With good faith in negotiations, the Italian community, united in purpose and heart, would put closure on this internment issue.

A central part of the bill was with respect to education, including an endowment fund. Through education, one not only remembers the past but is taught the past, ensuring that it's never repeated. It was also contemplated in the bill that we set up Italian chair studies.

To our shock and dismay, the correction of this wrong was again not to be. In June 2006, the Government of Canada unilaterally replaced it with CHIRP, without any consultation.

Notwithstanding the discussions and meetings that followed thereafter with the appropriate ministers, Bev Oda and Jason Kenney, with the NCIC throughout this taking the lead in bringing the parties together to discuss the issues and build consensus and unity in our community, no resolution was found.

The Italian Canadian community is a strong and united community. We applaud and support the Honourable Massimo Pacetti's bill, C-302, which once again clearly corrects the wrong, recognizing the injustices that were done to persons of Italian origin during World War II by way of an apology in the House of Commons and providing for restitution and promoting education on Italian-Canadian history.

It is said that a nation can't forward until it recognizes its past. It's time. How long do we have to wait? Are we to be treated any differently than Japanese Canadians, than Chinese Canadians, than others? Let not the Italian community be treated any less. Education, as I mentioned before, is a central part.

The Italian-Canadian community has been resilient throughout these years. It has come together in many facets; be it with earthquake relief funds or many other tragedies, we are united as one. Let us work together and bear witness, by the passage of this bill, to turning the wrong into a right.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Thank you.

Next.

[Antonio Sciascia, President, Quebec Region, National Congress of Italian Canadians]

My name is Antonio Sciascia. I'm the president of the National Congress of Italian Canadians, Quebec region. I'm a governor of the Italian Canadian Community Foundation. In my capacity as past president of the National Congress of Italian Canadians, on two occasions I have been involved in this very specific issue, and many others, for the last 25 years.

Today I am speaking on behalf of the Italian Canadian Community Foundation established in 1975 with the mission to raise funds for the aid and advancement of the Italian Canadian community and society at large. I underline “society at large” because today the Italian Canadian foundation contributes most of the funds raised--and I must say they're in the millions of dollars--to non-Italian organizations, such as hospitals and other charitable organizations all over this country.

I underline this because the issue today is not one of money. We are not here for money; we are here to claim an apology for the Italian Canadians who suffered all the injustices during World War II.

We support Bill C-302 unreservedly. The foundation was one of the signatories to the agreement in principle signed by the Government of Canada on November 5, 2005. When the Conservatives took office, we spent a number of years negotiating in vain with former Minister Oda, and our negotiations with the current Minister, Jason Kenney, have been equally fruitless. For reasons that are beyond me, Minister Kenney unilaterally decided to implement a new program that does not enjoy the support of the main Canadian Italian organizations.

The CHRP is an insult to our community for reasons that have already been communicated, as explained in the brief submitted on March 31, 2009, to the Honourable Jason Kenney, the minister. I draw your attention to the footnotes of this brief that give you a brief glimpse of a limited number of interventions by the national congress over the years. There are many, starting with the repatriation of the Constitution, the issue of the Multiculturalism Act, and the issue of immigration. On any issue that Parliament has dealt with, the national congress has made representation to the government.

On this particular issue of redress for internees, we have made representation to Parliament on several occasions. We go back to the early nineties, when we submitted a brief to the Prime Minister at the time called “A National Shame: The Internment of Italian Canadians”. At the conclusion of a committee of the national congress that travelled across Canada, this brief was made to the Right Honourable Brian Mulroney. Subsequent to that Mr. Mulroney did apologize before a banquet held by the congress in the CIBPA in Toronto, but this apology was never formalized.

As you know, this government apologized to the Chinese Canadians on the head tax. It apologized to the Japanese Canadians way back. It also settled this issue with the Ukrainian Canadians and gave the Ukrainian Canadian Foundation a $10-million endowment fund, administered by the Ukrainians themselves.

Why is it that we are not able to administer this fund? The foundation has raised millions of dollars in the past for the three major earthquakes that affected Italy: in 1976 in Friuli; in 1980 when we raised $12 billion and built homes for the people of Campania and Basilicata; and this year when we raised close to a million dollars for the people of Abruzzo. So we do not understand why we cannot administer a fund of $10 million, $12 million, or whatever it might be. However, the fund is not so important. At this point we want to correct the injustices of the past.

I agree that an apology will not solve everything, but at least it will make those people and those families who still remember.... And if you spoke to people who went to those camps you would understand why an apology would undo the wrongs that were committed during World War II.

It's an issue of doing what is right, and who did what in the past is irrelevant. Two wrongs don't make a right, so let's rectify this injustice.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Thank you.

Next speaker.

[Ciro Cucciniello, Board Member, Casa D'Italia]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

My name is Ciro Cucciniello. I was born in Montreal a little over 50 years ago. My father, Carmen Cucciniello, immigrated to Canada in 1953 from a village called Taverna la San Felice near Avellino, Italy. My mother immigrated in 1956, and they married here in Canada in 1957.

In 1982, while attending McGill law school, I was approached by law students of Italian-Canadian origin who spoke to me about this place called the Casa d'Italia, a community centre located at 505 Jean Talon Street East in Montreal. Their goal was to establish a legal aid clinic similar to the one operated by students at McGill University. However, it would address constituents of the Casa d'Italia. Something told me to explore this idea as a young law student.

At the Casa d'Italia I first met Sam Capozzi. He was the president of the Casa and a veteran of the Canadian special armed forces who served in Asia and the Pacific. He asked me a few questions about my family. He welcomed me and thanked me for volunteering my time to the community. Our discussions about the Casa d'Italia, the different waves of immigrants, where the Italians settled in Montreal and other Canadian cities led to stories about the integration of the Italian community and the Casa d'Italia in Canadian life.

Allow me to present to you a brief history of this 73-year-old institution and the backbone of our community since 1934.

In 1934 over 4,200 Montrealers donated between 10 cents and $100 towards the fund to build the Casa d'Italia, a home away from home. The Casa d'Italia opened its doors on November 1, 1936. On June 12, 1940, on a surprise raid by the RCMP and the QPP, the Casa d'Italia property and its belongings were sequestered and its membership used to mop up the enemy aliens.

After the war and under the leadership of the then Montreal mayor, Camillien Houde, who, by the way, was interned with local Italian Canadians, a private member's bill, 174, was presented to the National Assembly requesting restitution of the property. As soon as the property was returned, the Casa d'Italia readied itself to support the largest wave of Italian immigration to Canada. The first meals and shelter, an employment office to find jobs, and French and English language courses were provided to the recent arrivals. I wish to underline the significant role the Casa played in the process of landed immigrants acquiring their Canadian citizenship.

For the record, the Casa d'Italia is the second-oldest membership-based institution after the Order the Sons of Italy. Many organizations were conceived within its walls, including the National Congress of Italian Canadians. As we speak, the vintage 1936 art deco building housing the Casa d'Italia is being restored and expanded to archive the Italian-Canadian community experience, provide pedagogical support for school outings, and allow people to discover the story of our integration into Canadian life. The project has, as part of its mission, the promotion and education of exemplary Italian Canadians, their history, and their story.

It was during Sam's history lessons that I learned about the internment of persons of Italian origin in Canada during World War II. I had never heard of the military camp Petawawa, which served as the prison. I was familiar with the matter of the internment of Japanese and Ukrainian Canadians, but I was quite surprised to learn about the internment of persons of Italian origin.

In 1983 Sam asked me to become a member of the board of directors of the Casa d'Italia. I attended meetings and was literally taken aback by the concerns, stories, and life experiences of some of our members on the board and their families.

I recall the late Senator Pietro Rizzuto coming to provide assistance to the Casa d'Italia. I remember John Turner telling me to listen to what Sam Capozzi had to say with regard to community service. I remember former Premier of Quebec Robert Bourassa speaking to us on the issue of internment, saying “don't worry, at the right time an apology will come”. I remember Herbert Marx, the former Minister of Justice of Quebec, offering guidance at the invitation of Sam Capozzi on proceeding to obtain an official apology in an appropriate and dignified manner.

Many members of the board of the Casa d'Italia experienced Petawawa and its consequences. One of them was a fellow by the name of Gentile Dieni. He had been interned during World War II for his association with the Italian colony. Gentile Dieni represented a small but determined group of persons who wanted to get their due from the Canadian government for an injustice that had been perpetrated on them and their families.

I consistently heard that we, as Canadians of Italian origin, should request that the Government of Canada provide an apology to the families of those who were interned during World War II. I won't read section 3 of the act, but in my opinion and in the opinion of our constituency, it does just that. It clearly provides the apology that we, the members of the Italian community, have been requesting for so many years.

There are almost 300,000 Canadians of Italian origin in the greater Montreal area and over 600,000 Canadians of Italian origin in the greater Toronto area. There are close to 1.2 million Canadians of Italian origin in Canada today. Many of these Canadians and their children are paying particularly close attention to this bill.

Members of the community, including our business, professional, religious, and cultural groups, together with local Italian-Canadian media, see this bill as an opportunity for the Government of Canada and its members of Parliament, regardless of political stripe, to definitively correct a wrong. I believe that with the passing of the Italian-Canadian Recognition and Restitution Act, the Canadian government brings closure to what has been an open wound for many of us.

With respect to section 4, providing for restitution, I leave it to the best judgment of this government to determine an appropriate amount, if any, for community programs and educational materials. The constituency of the Casa d'Italia, which directly suffered the consequences of the enemy alien designation and internment, truly believes that the prime aspect of this act is the apology.

I wish to thank Massimo Pacetti, the member of Parliament for Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, for bringing this bill forward, and the Government of Canada for bringing closure to this issue and for providing appropriate restitution in the circumstances. Mr. Chair, I would also like to acknowledge the presence of Pasquale Cobacci, secretary general of the Order Sons of Italy, and Angela Minicucci, board member of the Casa d'Italia.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

We'll go to Mr. Forcucci.