Canadian Heritage Committee on Nov. 24th, 2009

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

As I have mentioned, there will be a board of directors with 10 members, including four for the congress and two each for the Canadian-Italian Business and Professional Association, the Order Sons of Italy of Canada and the Italian-Canadian Community Foundation.

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

If the bill were adopted, would it settle the grievances of the Quebec- and Canadian-Italian communities once and for all?

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

I think that the only outstanding grievance is not having received an apology from Parliament. The Italian community has reached a rather mature state; I think that an apology is all it needs. We have talked about compensation, but I do not believe that that is the important issue. Those are small amounts compared to the funds that can be raised by the community. The demands made throughout all these years can be summed up by the fact that the community was expecting an apology. I would therefore answer in the affirmative.

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

That would therefore settle the issue.

Last week, officials from the Canada Post Corporation spoke to us about the section that refers to the commemoration of the internment of Italians, and they said that the approach you had taken in your bill was not feasible.

Would you be greatly troubled if we amended that section in order to make it more practicable and avoid potential litigation?

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

I would like to briefly comment on two issues. I am not surprised by their comments. They always find an excuse not to do what parliamentarians want, however—

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

That will be held against you.

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

However, I understand where they're coming from and I agree. I read the minutes of the last meeting and agree with the amendment you put forward. In fact, it was a simple suggestion. I even agree with Mr. Del Mastro, and I too do not want to politicize Canada Post. I am willing to support that amendment. Moreover, yours is a good wording.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Thank you.

Mr. Angus, please.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Pacetti, for coming before us. Thank you for answering that last question, because that was an outstanding concern in the New Democratic Party.

Overall, I'm very pleased with this bill. I think it does address an outstanding issue that has to be addressed in order to close a chapter in our history.

I was interested in what you said at the outset about how many of the stories have not been told because of a sense of family shame. I told a story last week, but to me, it's something I've lived with all my life. My grandparents were Scottish and lived in the Italian neighbourhood in Timmins. They knew well what happened to the Italians in the war, and it was something never to be spoken of. Every now and then I'd start to ask questions and I would be told that's not history, we don't talk about that. This was because of the sense of shame.

I started to research it. We talk about having to put these things in context of the times and how people saw things at the time. I did extensive readings of the microfiche of the local newspapers for the 1930s, and the local editorials loved Mussolini. They were always complimenting Mussolini in the local papers, saying here's a guy who's standing up, here's a guy getting something done; here's a guy standing up to those Bolsheviks.

Then they would turn, and the attacks in our community were against people from Finland. There were lots of editorials saying that we should have wholesale deportation of all the rotten Finns because they were communists and they were not loyal Canadians. There was never any mention of the Italians in the 1930s in any of the papers in northern Ontario as being disloyal or a threat to the empire—not until 1940. Suddenly the local papers were calling for the Italians to be subject to the treatment that they had previously wanted the Finns and Ukrainians to receive.

I think it really shows the arbitrary nature of history when we start to suddenly identify people as enemy aliens who had previously been considered loyal. Nobody at the start of the war turned around and said to the editorial boards of all the local papers, you guys have been promoting Mussolini for years, so why aren't you interned? They went from being treated as respectable citizens, and very good Italian community leaders were targeted because of these kinds of newspaper attacks.

I think that what you say is very true. For those families who suffered for it and for those families who were ashamed to even speak about it years later, this heals a wound.

Certainly the New Democratic Party will be supporting this bill. With my colleagues, the only concern was about the identification in number four for restitution to the National Congress of Italian Canadians as the only group identified. We had another group here before us saying that they wanted to be part of that.

Is there language that we could use in the bill that would alleviate the sense that one group is perhaps being brought to the front and not other groups in the Italian-Canadian community?

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Angus. Thank you for your party's support. It was important to have this bill passed with your party's support.

Let me answer the last question first. In terms of having consensus, there is already a consensus and foundation in place and all these organizations already take part in administrating this foundation. I wasn't present at the meeting, but if you read the minutes, they say they want to be part of the negotiations, and I think you're going to hear the same thing from the other organizations who are going to make presentations afterwards.

They are part of the organization. They want to continue to be part of the negotiations, but I don't think you need to have six entities in the bill. The community is large enough. It's going to be never-ending. We have tons of organizations that could be named, but the national congress, like every other community, is representative of the Italian Canadians. I think there will be others speaking to it in terms of what their mandate is and what their role is going to be.

I'm very comfortable with that. I don't think there needs to be a discussion on it. During my speeches in Parliament, I said that the other organizations will be part of the negotiation process. The fact that we spoke about it here in committee is on the record, saying that they will be part of it. I don't see why the bill has to be amended. We're going to get caught up in another bureaucracy entanglement for no reason.

In terms of the shame, I agree with you. I represent the riding with the highest concentration of Italians. I'm one of the few urban MPs who grew up in his riding. I didn't know about this internment until I became an MP. I'm not an expert on this subject matter; I just thought that it was important to bring it forward. You talk about shame. My parents were not affected by this. We were affected as a community, but not directly affected.

Putting it into context, I think it is something that has to come out. Getting the official apology in Parliament is something that is going to set an example. It is going to make a point out there and we are going to be able to educate Canadians so that we don't repeat the mistakes of the past.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Thank you very much.

We'll go to Mr. Del Mastro.

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, Mr. Pacetti.

At the outset, I want to say, to begin with, that I think you are a Canadian proud of his Italian heritage. I respect that. I also put myself in that class. My disagreement with you on this bill in no way, in my view, casts any doubt on the fact that you're both a proud Canadian and a proud Canadian of Italian descent. I want to make that clear at the outset. I respect the efforts you make on behalf of the Italian community.

There a couple of things I want to raise before I get to my point. To begin with, if you set up a fund that is going to be administered by a single group, whether or not they were involved in the negotiations at the outset, and they will be the only administrator of funds, I believe that in the long term that is going to be divisive. I've served, as I've indicated previously, on small organizations, such as the Peterborough and District Italian Club, and I can tell you that the disbursement of funds always causes friction. And I think this would cause a lot of friction.

With respect to shame, I think there was a time in Canada.... I know, because my own family lived through it. My dad's family had seven boys and two girls. They were raised in the 1940s in northern Ontario--it's what I call northern Ontario and what Charlie would call the south. They lived through it. My mother was forbidden to see my father, even though they were both Roman Catholic. My father was an Italian, and my mother's family was of French-Canadian descent, and that just wasn't acceptable. That wasn't something you did.

I'm aware that those things existed. I would even argue that discrimination existed against Italian Canadians well into the seventies in Canada, but we worked past it. I don't think there's any shame any more in this country in being Italian. I can tell you that my grandfather would often speak about how this country gave him the opportunity to achieve things that he never could have achieved at home in Italy. He's always proud to be Canadian. I think we're past those things.

I want to deal with this issue of the apology, because I believe this is the outstanding issue. I want to go back to what was said by then Prime Minister Brian Mulroney in a speech to the National Congress of Italian Canadians. I've cut this down:

Our diversity is a source of immense pride for Canadians. And rightly so. But the challenge we face is to make sure that in respecting our diversity and our heritage we do not fragment our citizenship.

On March 8 of this year I stated that the record would not be complete until we addressed ourselves to the wrongs suffered by other groups of Canadians. On May 23, in the House of Commons, I made clear this commitment included the indignity suffered by the Italian Canadian community between 1940 and 1943, a community that traces its Canadian roots back a hundred years. I am here today in part to advance that process.

...

What happened to many Italian Canadians is deeply offensive to the simple notion of respect for human dignity and the presumption of innocence. The brutal injustice was inflicted arbitrarily, not only on individuals suspected of being security risks but also on individuals whose only crime was being of Italian origin. In fact, many of the arrests were based on membership in Italian Canadian organizations--much like the ones represented here today. None of the 700 internees was ever charged with an offence and no judicial proceedings were launched. It was often, in the simplest terms, an act of prejudice--organized and carried out under law, but prejudice nevertheless.

In 1988 my Government revoked the War Measures Act--so that never again will such injustices be inflicted on innocent and unsuspecting Canadians. By creating the Canadian Race Relations Foundation, we are also saying “never again”. But to say “never again” without explicitly and formally recognising as well that a wrong has been done is not enough.

...

This kind of behaviour was not then, is not now, and never will be acceptable in a civilized nation that purports to respect the rule of law. On behalf of the government and people of Canada, I offer a full and unqualified apology for the wrongs done to our fellow Canadians of Italian origin during World War II.

Those were the words of the Prime Minister of Canada after he undertook an initiative in the House of Commons to put an end to the War Measures Act. These were significant moves made by then Prime Minister Mulroney. It was a significant apology made to the Italian community on behalf of all Canadians by our prime minister. It was a significant moment in our past.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Thank you.

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

Mr. Chairman, quickly, all he has to do is hand the speech over to the sitting Prime Minister and have him say the same words in Parliament and I think everybody will be happy. That's exactly what the bill says.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Okay.

Ms. Minna.

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

This a particularly interesting moment for me. I was the president of the National Congress of Italian Canadians in 1992 when we fought for this. At the time I remember meeting, together with the German community and the Chinese Canadian community, with ministers of Mr. Mulroney to ask that he do that in the House of Commons, in Parliament. We never accepted that as the official apology at the time that I was president of the National Congress of Italian Canadians, and we don't now. The Parliament of Canada is where it belongs, as it has been done for other organizations, such as the Japanese-Canadian community and others. I just want to set the record straight that I was very involved at the time in trying to get this resolved.

With respect to the comments, I will make a couple of comments to update this.

With respect to the concerns of my colleague on the opposite side that there will be disagreements, there are always disagreements in any community as they work things out. The National Congress of Italian Canadians is the umbrella organization for the Italian-Canadian community in Canada. It is not this government's role to decide who represents that community. It is decided by the community itself, through the membership. The people here will attest to that later this morning.

I think the honourable member's bill makes sense.

I wanted to clarify those things and put them on the table, because I understand the structure of that community very well, having volunteered in it.

I want to say to my honourable colleague Mr. Del Mastro that I can guarantee there was discrimination well into the seventies and eighties, having experienced it directly myself, as did many members of the community.

And thank you, Massimo, for bringing this forward. This is very important. However, I want to ask—because I assume this has been done—about the reason behind your tabling the bill. I presume it was to get the apology in Parliament, as you said, and to ensure there is a proper relationship with the leadership of the community in terms of the ongoing allocation and administration of funds, that there is a coordinated effort on the part of the community, and that the will of that community is respected, as opposed to going to smaller groups or anyone else. Am I correct in making that statement?

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

We're spending a lot of time and money on all this.

It's funny, Mr. Del Mastro spoke for about four or five minutes rather than asking a question, so it means he agreed. The problem is not in administering the money. Once again, the Italian community is being labelled. The Ukrainian community has been given $10 million to administer on its own; meanwhile, the Italian community is not good enough, it can't be trusted.

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Well, that was my question.

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

That is the reason I'm bringing the bill forward to the heritage committee. The minister in charge of this file, Mr. Kenney, does not seem to understand the differences between communities. There have been apologies in the House of Commons that were addressed to the Chinese community and the Japanese community. The Italians are waiting.

The money is another aspect. My personal belief is that the money should be 100% for education purposes, not necessarily to Italian associations, but through the congress. If it chooses to do that, I think it's mature enough. There's enough ability to raise money within the community that if they need to raise money for certain projects they can do it. I think the money is a secondary aspect.

My personal belief is the money should go to educate--not just Canadians, but start with Italian Canadians, because we have a miscomprehension just with the 13 or 14 MPs around the table.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Ms. Minna, you have a very short time left.

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

I'll close with a very quick comment. Education is extremely important, because the Italian-Canadian community does not have a clear understanding of this situation or the experience of the Italian-Canadian community during the post-war experience.

From 1957, when I came, and to date, there is a huge amount of misunderstanding. There was a lot of stereotyping that went on, for years. Three generations of our kids were streamed into vocational schools in Ontario, that I know of. I don't know about the rest of the country.

There's a huge amount that needs to be dealt with in that community. I thank you for taking the initiative.

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

And it continues today, Ms. Minna.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Thank you.

Mr. Pomerleau, please.

[Roger Pomerleau, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Pacetti, I would like to thank you for your presentation, as well as for having risen in the House to table the bill. I lived for many years on Langelier Boulevard, not far in fact from Mr. Gagliano. I am very familiar with the construction sector in Saint-Léonard. As a carpenter, I worked for almost everyone there, including Mayori, Naskali and Pavage Del Papa et Fils, and so on.

The Italian community was ostracized because of what happened during the war. In fact, Italy was at war against Canada and its allies. Here at home, that was invoked to muzzle Italian Canadians. People who did not participate in the fighting, did not send money back to Italy and who were not combatants were thrown into jail without any explanation. They were jailed so that the community would keep a low profile.

At the previous committee meeting, I drew a parallel, which happened to be reported by some newspapers. I would like to go over that again today. Quebec experienced the same situation when the War Measures Act was imposed. Some 400 Quebeckers were jailed without any reason. They were not members of the FLQ and had never been accused or taken to court. The government took advantage of the fact that some groups were committing reprehensible acts in order to silence Quebeckers. However, they locked up the wrong people. The same thing happened with the Italian community.

My parallel is as follows. If people in my riding ask me for my opinion—and one person has asked so far—I would say that I agree that the injustices done to the Italian community should be recognized. I agree that compensation in one form or another should be offered, knowing that such restitution will never redress all the injustices that the community suffered.

If people in my riding ask me why Quebeckers are compensating the Italian community, while Quebeckers who were locked up will never be compensated and never receive a statement of apology in the House, what should I tell them? That is not an easy question to answer.

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

No, it certainly is not. The bill refers to human rights abuses. The Italian community suffered an injustice; there is no doubt about that, there is no “grey area”. Italians who left their country to settle here were fleeing the Italian regime. Times were different. Italians came here to work and to have a better life. The people interned were shopkeepers and businesspeople. One of them manufactured boats used by the Canadian Forces. And yet, he was imprisoned and wound up losing his business. I could give you a myriad of other examples.

Even today, rights abuse persists; it is something we hear about in other committees. The incidents may be less striking, but remain, nonetheless, behaviour that should not be tolerated. Will Canada ever be entirely free from human rights abuse? Our charter and our sophisticated system of rights mean that we should be able to have a country free from the scourge of human rights abuse. At least, I would certainly hope so.