Canadian Heritage Committee on Nov. 29th, 2012

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

No, I think it's good. As I said in the beginning when I made the pitch for the museum, there are reasons to disagree on priorities. That's fine, but let's disagree with priorities by having an apples-to-apples debate about the numbers. If we look at everything the Government of Canada is investing with regard to Canada's history, which includes the War of 1812, the idea that we're spending money to celebrate history and then spending money on the War of 1812, these are actually the same thing.

Included in the money we're spending for the Canadian museum of history will be things for the War of 1812. Included in things that count as part of the money that we're spending on the War of 1812 will be things being done by the museum of history. These things overlap. They are in fact one and the same. You can't pit dollar against dollar when it's actually the same dollar, although some can try.

[Jim Hillyer, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

I want to talk about the CBC. The estimates show reductions in funding.

I come from southern Alberta where there are some people who think that any funding is inappropriate. I don't share that view. I'm a southern Albertan who sometimes gets mocked for enjoying the CBC. I actually enjoy their programming, not just their value for Canada.

Can you tell the committee why the reductions were necessary? Can you explain the need for the government to respect taxpayers' dollars while continuing to accomplish the goals of the CBC?

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

I agree with Scott Simms on this. I don't doubt there are going to be some difficult choices being made at CBC. I know them very well because we've been a part of those discussions about how they plan to move forward and fulfill their mandate. If you look at the cost of running the CBC 20 years ago versus the cost of operating the CBC today, it's a dramatically different universe. There used to be eight unions at the CBC, and now there are five. The unions have been great, I think. I am working with the management at CBC to find a way to protect the public broadcaster to fulfill its mandate while finding cost savings and doing so responsibly.

We give the example that's been trotted out again and again. We as politicians know you go to an event and you see Radio-Canada Television, a Radio Canada reporter, Radio Canada sound, CBC Television, CBC reporters. You see two or three vehicles roll up and they all go back to the same headquarters and file their stories. It seems odd. Those days are pretty much over. The way in which CBC has become streamlined has been really effective. As a result of challenging the CBC to be more responsible and more fiscally accountable, they've arrived at some very effective solutions.

On top of that, the CBC's embrace of digital media is quite outstanding. It's second to none among broadcasters in this country. If you look at 2.TV, the CBC television app, CBC music, and all the things they're doing to embrace digital platforms to maintain their younger audience, these are things to be applauded.

Many times it operates as a bit of a trial and error for the private sector broadcasters that want to see how much audiences are migrating to iPad apps to watch television and whether or not it's working. The CBC is operating as a bit of an experimental stream for television broadcasting to see if the numbers they have on traditional media are migrating onto digital platforms. They are looking at what can be learned by that, and other broadcasters are learning from them.

CBC is actually contributing to a better understanding of the digitization of media across all platforms, and everybody is learning from this. The way they're doing business is very good when it comes to digital media and approaching the challenges of reaching new and better audiences.

Broadly speaking, I'm Minister of Canadian Heritage but also Minister for Official Languages. I often make the argument that we need to remind ourselves that the CBC broadcasts in eight aboriginal languages in the north. They're the only broadcaster that operates in both official languages in every region of the country. If I'm away from Parliament for a while and I'm away from speaking French and I want to maintain my ability to communicate effectively in both languages, the only place to go is CBC. It's the only platform that exists in both languages, and it's important for that reason alone, for the sake of national unity and respecting our official languages.

[Jim Hillyer, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Thank you for your input.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Moore]

Thank you, Mr. Hillyer.

Next we have Mr. Dubé.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank you for being here with us, Minister, even though it is only for an hour. I hope you will appear before us again very soon.

Mr. Nantel asked a question about the agreement between Canada and Europe. I think this is relevant when we are talking about the budget, given that what we are talking about here is Canadian Heritage's funds and the repercussions that might have.

Can you tell us whether the government's position is still to preserve the culture exception in the Canada-Europe agreement?

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

As you know, it was the previous Conservative government that created the culture exemption in the North American Free Trade Agreement...

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

So you are going to preserve it this time?

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

Let me finish my sentence.

As you know, it is the government of Quebec that is in favour of free trade with Europe in principle. If we get to that point, we are certainly going to come up with an agreement to genuinely protect our cultural communities and their needs.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

We also hope that this will be an important element of the agreement.

We talk about the War of 1812, but a fourth figure has not been mentioned earlier: our francophone officer Charles de Salaberry. And he comes from our part of the country. In Chambly, I had the opportunity to meet Jacques Lacoursière, whom you must know very well. He is an historian who has received the Order of Canada, for example. He asked me whether this French historical figure who is so important would be honoured in some way. Since we are talking about budget issues, I will use this occasion to ask you the question. Perhaps this war will be marked very broadly, but it is still important.

Will the leading francophone figure in that history be in evidence next year? October 2013 will be the anniversary of the Battle of Châteauguay.

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

Not if the NDP members have their way.

The short answer is yes. If you go to the website at www.1812.gc.ca, you will see that it give equal time to four major figures: Laura Secord, Charles de Salaberry, Isaac Brock and Tecumseh. These are regional stories, personal stories and various other stories. It talks about these four individuals as heroes of the War of 1812.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

Even Mr. Lacoursière asked the question. As you say, the four figures are of equal importance, but up to now, we have not seen very much having to do with recognizing the one from our part of the country, the francophone in the story. Is that going to be done soon? Is there funding arranged for it?

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

It is also important to us. As you know, in the Niagara region and southwestern Ontario, the stories about the War of 1812 are well known. However, the farther you get from those regions, the less people understand the importance of the stories. I think it is very important that Quebeckers, as well as people in the West, including British Columbia, understand the importance of that war. There are certainly going to be some special events on that theme.

It may be a partisan comment, but you are going to have to fight it out a little with your colleagues in the NDP, who want to cut the funding related to the War of 1812.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

You are the ones in power, and you have a majority. If you have made a political commitment in this regard, there will be no problem.

With respect to the abolition of the Katimavik program, you have said it was the easiest decision you have had to make as a minister. My colleague Ms. Borg, who has done a lot of work on that issue, told me that the excuse that was constantly cited was the redistribution of funds. The mission of the Katimavik program was truly unique, however.

Are there going to be new investments to create a unique organization that could perform the same mission? That program provided an opportunity to get to know not just the history of Canada, but its present, as well. Are you planning to do that? These are such important investments.

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

Yes. That is what we are doing now. Just a few months ago, we signed a five-year agreement with SEVEC, an organization for young people whose mandate deals primarily with official languages, but it also has the goal of bringing young people from all regions of the country together so they can share ideas and talk about the future of Canada, in both official languages.

We are also going to continue our commitment to the Forum for Young Canadians. A new program has been created for young people so they can develop projects themselves, and what they produce can then be handled in the regions where the young people live. We are certainly going to continue to support them.

Canadian Heritage invests about $100 million in youth programming. The Katimavik program was one of those programs, but it was certainly not the only one. That also does not include the Human Resources and Skills Development Canada programs for youth. There are more programs than ever before for young people. Yes, the Katimavik program has been abolished, but...

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

You do not think it was unique?

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Moore]

Thank you, Mr. Dubé.

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

Katimavik had received tens of millions of dollars since 1977. One third of the young people initially enrolled in the program dropped out. It cost a lot of money, but the results were not worth it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Moore]

Thank you, Mr. Dubé.

You have two minutes, Mr. Armstrong.

[Scott Armstrong, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS]

Thank you, Minister, for being here.

To meet the NDP's demands, are you first going to cut the money you've allocated to the War of 1812 and then later increase it, or are you going to increase it and then later cut it?

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

I'm pleased to have a mandate from Mr. Dubé to go forward and to continue to invest in the War of 1812.

[Scott Armstrong, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS]

Minister, I will roll quickly because I know we are short of time. I'm very interested, as a historian myself, in the support of local history museums across the country. For those of us from rural parts of the country where there are many small museums, this is going to be a fantastic opportunity for them.

Could you expand on this opportunity and especially touch on how it's going to support small museums in rural communities?

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

These museums around the country are often faced with really difficult challenges. I have to say municipal governments around the country do a pretty great job of supporting local museums. Many of them don't charge property taxes, and they promote them and support them through their municipal budgets. There are some pretty great stories to be told. That said, a lot of these museums are operating on volunteer effort. I don't think it's an unfair generalization to say a lot of young Canadians aren't engaged in celebrating and supporting history. I go to museums all across the country all the time. You meet boards of directors and volunteers who do a great job with these museums, many of whom are getting on in years. We don't have that new energy. There's a real need across the country to boost our local museums. A number of the ways we do that is to support them, to support municipal governments that are helping them, to allow them to refresh their collections, to have access to the national history museums so they can have access to collections.

As I mentioned, you can imagine being able to host items related to the 1972 Summit Series, having Paul Henderson's jersey, Phil Esposito's stick on display. There could be a sneak preview of these things at an evening reception. They could charge people $150 a ticket and get a little cash into the till. Again, it would be at no cost to the local museum. Indemnification pays for it. The local museum could get these items. It could host a fundraiser. People could come in and put a little money into the local museum. They could do another event a few months later. We need to get collections moving around the country.

It's great to have the big, beautiful, iconic national museum here in the national capital, but it shouldn't just be about the national capital. All our museums should benefit from this great institution. That's what we're trying to do.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Moore]

Thank you, Mr. Armstrong.

Thank you, Minister. Thank you to your officials who've joined you. We'll dismiss you guys, and then we have some votes to take on the supplementary estimates.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Moore]

Everybody should have the documentation for the supplementary estimates (B) 2012-13 in front of them. A series of votes is normally taken. We'll begin those now.

CANADIAN HERITAGE Department Vote 1b—Operating expenditures..........$1 Vote 5b—The grants listed in the Estimates and contributions..........$7,545,519 Canadian Broadcasting Corporation Vote 15b—Payments to the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation for operating expenditures..........$32,200,000 Canadian Museum for Human Rights Vote 30b—Payments to the Canadian Museum for Human Rights for operating and capital expenditures..........$46,700,000 Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission Vote 50b—Program expenditures and, pursuant to paragraph 29.1(2)(a) of the Financial Administration Act, authority to expend revenues received..........$2,553,902 National Museum of Science and Technology Vote 90b—Payments to the National Museum of Science and Technology for operating and capital expenditures..........$1

(Votes 1b and 5b agreed to on division)

(Votes 15b, 30b, 50b, and 90b agreed to)

Shall I report the supplementary estimates (B) 2012-13 to the House?

Mr. Simms.