Evidence of meeting #122 for Canadian Heritage in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was repatriation.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Dean Oliver  Director, Research, Canadian Museum of History
Travis Gladue  Co-founder, Bigstone Empowerment Society
David Yurdiga  Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, CPC
Chief Morley Googoo  Regional Chief, Nova Scotia/Newfoundland and Labrador, Assembly of First Nations
Sarah Pash  Executive Director, Aanischaaukamikw Cree Cultural Institute
Ruth Phillips  Professor, The Great Lakes Research Alliance for the Study of Aboriginal Arts & Cultures
Anong Migwans Beam  Executive Director, Ojibwe Cultural Foundation, The Great Lakes Research Alliance for the Study of Aboriginal Arts & Cultures
Wayne Long  Saint John—Rothesay, Lib.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Julie Dabrusin

I call the meeting to order.

I would like to welcome everyone to meeting number 122 of the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage.

I apologize for a slight delay in beginning, but we will keep moving it along.

We have witnesses here today with regard to our study of Bill C-391, an act respecting a national strategy for the repatriation of aboriginal cultural property. We have Travis Gladue with us, from Bigstone Empowerment Society, and from the Canadian Museum of History, we have Dean Oliver.

We have one other witness on this list, but I just want to confirm whether she's in this room. She would be Sarah Pash from the Aanischaaukamikw Cree Cultural Institute.

All right, we're still waiting for her. What we can do is begin with the witnesses who are present.

I would also like to flag for you that you have translation services available. We have members of Parliament who will ask questions in both English and French, because we are a bilingual committee, so if you need translation services, you have earpieces you can use.

Why don't we begin with the Canadian Museum of History?

We'll begin with Dean Oliver, please.

11:10 a.m.

Dr. Dean Oliver Director, Research, Canadian Museum of History

Thank you very much.

Good morning, Madame Chair.

The Museum of History is very appreciative of the opportunity to discuss Bill C-391 and the proposed creation of a national strategy for the repatriation of aboriginal cultural property.

As an institution that has been historically at the forefront of discussions on this subject, and on reconciliation with indigenous communities more generally, we are pleased at the invitation to share some notes from our own experiences and recommendations and have had an opportunity to meet with the sponsor of the bill earlier this year to provide, directly, some feedback and advice and I will reiterate that a little further in my remarks.

The museum, as many of you know, is Canada's national museum of history. It is one of Canada's six national museums and is mandated onto the Museums Act of 1990 to collect objects of historical or cultural interest to be preserved on behalf of all Canadians. The museum's unique collection represents the entire country, all of its peoples, and it is very well documented. It was built and continues to be built with very particular deliberation in terms of collections, building and management.

It holds, I think, the largest collection of objects related to indigenous history and culture in Canada, collected over the past 150 years. It's well known in the museological community for its close work in collaboration, consultation and partnership with indigenous communities, and many of those same communities are, in fact, quite proud to have their cultures and their histories represented in the museum and its activities.

The museum recently opened the Canadian History Hall, the most comprehensive exhibition of Canadian history ever developed, and that hall begins with an indigenous creation story and continues to weave indigenous stories throughout approximately 15,000 years of Canadian history that are depicted in the hall, fully integrating indigenous stories into the fabric of the museum in its entirety. A section of that hall—to point out one example—presents a digital forensic depiction of the likenesses of a high-ranking indigenous Shishalh family that lived approximately 4000 years ago. This module was created in very close collaboration with that indigenous community, and a second version of the module was presented at the same time in the community's own museum in Sechelt, on the Pacific coast of British Columbia. The entire hall, in fact, was created through that kind of collaboration with indigenous communities around the country, as well as in consultation with an indigenous advisory committee. The hall, too, was designed by someone many of you know, indigenous architect Douglas Cardinal, who was the designer of the original museum building itself.

The museum's leadership in that kind of principled engagement was, in fact, highlighted in the 2015 report of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission by name. Such projects build, we believe, strong and positive relationships with communities, and they share knowledge and expertise. They achieve all of that through day-to-day museum work, as well as through more formal programs, such as something called the sacred materials project, which brings community members to the museum to share appropriate and traditional care and handling of the materials and knowledge of same.

The RBC Aboriginal Training Program in Museum Practices, which was created in the early 1990s, offers professional and technical training for first nations, Métis and Inuit participants from the around country so that they may gather, preserve and share their own histories and cultures in their own communities. That has now graduated more than 100 young indigenous museum professionals.

In the field of repatriation activities specifically, we have been very heavily involved for around four decades. Beginning in the early 1990s, the repatriation of objects in the national collection was also added as a topic in treaty negotiations. The museum engages directly in those negotiations, providing information about the collections to participants and discussing repatriation in the context of its own repatriation practices and policies.

In addition to treaty negotiations, custodial agreements or sharing agreements are another important way that the museum shares responsibility for, and access to, its own collections. The museum has a custodial agreement, for example, with the Nisga'a Nation whereby Nisga'a objects are shared on a permanent and ongoing basis with the community.

That agreement speaks to consultation and the inclusion of Nisga'a cultural practices in the care of objects that remain at the museum and of any future acquisitions by the museum of Nisga'a material. Nisga'a Museum director Stephanie Halapija called the implementation of that agreement, “a tangible representation of reconciliation in action.”

The underlying purpose of the bill we are discussing today, as reiterated by the sponsoring member before this committee on September 18, is to provide an additional voice or doorway to the repatriation discussion. This is an objective my museum certainly shares.

As we understood it directly and indirectly from the sponsoring member, his intent in drafting the bill was to address concerns he had for a small museum in his riding in an effort to help it repatriate an object held in an international museum. The proposed strategy that has resulted, which was kindly shared with the museum in the spring, promises to support the return of aboriginal cultural property under specified conditions and to improve access to that property for educational and ceremonial purposes as matters of equal importance.

The museum shares fully these objectives. In fact, as I've already indicated, the museum is doing much of this work now, and has been for a very long time. However, the museum would add for the committee's due consideration—as we shared with the member after meeting with him in the spring—some suggestions on how the bill's current language might better serve these purposes.

As written, the bill's language may be more expansive and imprecise, and therefore not as helpful as originally intended. The strategy could identify more clearly the types of material to be subject to repatriation and the terms and conditions under which requests or demands might be entertained. For example, the current draft offers little distinction between legally acquired objects and all objects, a difference of cardinal importance to all collecting institutions, and indeed to all collectors the world over.

Further, the notion of physical and legal availability of an object is likewise currently absent from the bill's language, as is the notion of compliance with existing and relevant indigenous protocols. The bill, we believe, would be further helped by clearly defining what “available” or “availability” means in its context.

These suggestions would help hone and target the bill's efforts to realize what we understood to be its original spirit and intent. They would also serve to clarify the work and deliberations of any strategy or implementation framework that would later be created by the bill to help manage the flow of information, claims and decisions.

In our experience, this important but delicate work also requires clarity on the link between the requester for repatriated material and the material being requested. This, too, is presently imprecise in the bill's language, which specifies objects that are “of importance” to requesters. Describing objects as “linked to” or “originating from” the requester's specific indigenous group would, we think, be closer to the professed intent.

The bill may also be enhanced by including the notions of access and/or accessibility in addition to that of repatriation. As we indicated earlier, there are other means in addition to repatriation that can enhance accessibility to stories and to objects. As the bill proposes ways to measure progress and eventually to create metrics for success, it might also acknowledge awareness of the work already being done today by cultural institutions of many types, and the ways in which the bill can support such institutions in their work.

Any such metric should differentiate between existing efforts that are successful and new initiatives that stem from the bill and might also be successful, to ensure that future reporting is effective, accurate and encouraging of future results.

In closing, we've been guided in these comments by the text of the bill itself; by what the sponsoring member indicated about his motivations and intentions, including his comments to you on September 18; and by our own considerable experience in repatriation work and related fields as a very privileged participant and, humbly, a leading practitioner for some 40 years in this field, in anticipation of greater and more impactful efforts yet to come.

We certainly believe that the bill holds promise. We also believe that it needs some additional diligence and tighter drafting in key areas to ensure it meets its author's and this committee's expectations, so that if enacted, it can serve as a usable, effective and respectful framework for many years to come.

Thank you very much for the opportunity to speak to you today. We hope the committee finds our recommendations to be of use in its deliberations.

I look forward to your questions.

Thank you very much.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Julie Dabrusin

Thank you.

We will now go to Mr. Travis Gladue of the Bigstone Empowerment Society.

11:20 a.m.

Travis Gladue Co-founder, Bigstone Empowerment Society

Thank you.

Hello. Tansi. I am Travis Gladue.

I would like to thank MP David Yurdiga for the recommendation to be here today, and the heritage committee for inviting me to discuss Bill C-391, An Act respecting a national strategy for the repatriation of Aboriginal cultural property.

Before we begin, I would like to acknowledge the traditional territory of the Algonquin Tribe in Ottawa.

I'm a proud Bigstone Cree Nation member from Treaty 8 territory in northern Alberta. Our traditional territories include Chipewyan Lake, Sandy Lake, Calling Lake, and Wabasca-Desmarais, Alberta. We are a Woodland Cree tribe.

My nation is known as sakâwiyiniwak. It's also a Cree word for forest people, bush people.

Over the centuries we have had many ceremonial items taken from us by museums, collectors, churches, specifically from the Anglican and Catholic denominations. Some of the ancient artifacts, which date back prior to European contact, include arrowheads, axe heads and various ancient tools. Due to the colonization of Canada, many of these ancestral artifacts were taken from us or were destroyed.

As a nation, we are in the process of healing and reconciliation, and we greatly need to find our identity, culture and language.

Working together collectively to have these items repatriated is an empowering mechanism that will be a vital component to build the journey toward reconciliation so that our future generations can have the dignity and pride that our ancestors and grandparents had taken away from them.

Safekeeping and monitoring of these artifacts will take a collective effort and support system from all levels of government to help ensure this effort will be sustained and protected in the years to come. Furthermore, first nation, Métis and Inuit nations should work along with all parties involved into helping to preserve and protect our history.

An elder and fellow members from my nation have recently been in contact with the Royal Alberta Museum regarding some of the artifacts they have kept in their collection. A total of 11 objects are being considered for repatriation, including a pair of handmade moccasins, a drum, an axe head, and several pieces of jewellery. We are currently talking with the museum about a long-term loan basis. We have overcome a hurdle recently due to the great efforts to build a facility to house these objects.

Back in 2000, the Alberta provincial government passed the First Nations Sacred Ceremonial Objects Repatriation Act. The act governs the Royal Alberta Museum and the Glenbow Museum in Calgary, but mainly pertains to the Blackfoot tribe in Treaty 7 territory and only currently covers ceremonial items. Members of my nation would like to see the act expanded to include the other two main Alberta treaties, Treaty 6 and Treaty 8.

I would like to thank Mike Beaver, the former Bigstone Cree Nation Chief and current chairman of the Wabasca Museum Board. He was one of the first people to propose the repatriation of items back in 2007. I would also like to thank the former chief, Ralph Cardinal, for his support to achieve the recognition of these endeavours.

On another note, I'd like to take a moment and mention the protection and repatriation of ancestral gravesites. In 1999, a book called Kituskeenow Cultural Land-Use and Occupancy Study was published by the Arctic Institute of North America. The subjects covered in the book included native people in the Alberta region. Specifically, page 36 of this book sums it up:

The project recorded unregistered grave sites only. The total number of these graves exceeded 200 at more than 70 sites. Registered cemetery sites in the communities of Peerless Lake, Trout Lake, Wabasca-Desmarais, Sandy Lake and Calling Lake are not included in the count. Most of the elders in this study will be buried in these established communities rather than the bush where they were born and raised.

In early 2017, I researched the potential burial location of a former chief of Bigstone Cree Nation. Chief Maxime Beauregard served the nation from May 26, 1947, to January 31, 1962. After his time as chief of Bigstone Cree Nation, my great-grandfather became ill and was sent to the Charles Camsell Indian Hospital in Edmonton. He passed away on July 24, 1963. His body was not sent back to Wabasca, where he was from and where his children resided at that time and reside even to this day.

According to his death records, he was buried at the Winterburn Cemetery, which is located in Enoch Cree Nation, Alberta. We were able to find some potential burial locations, and at this point in time, we are in talks with the Enoch Cree Nation with regard to burial plots and the location of these potential plots or the names of these parties.

I would just like to conclude that this bill is very important, but it will also have to take into consideration the consultation needed in the communities. There needs to be a collective, joint effort by all parties involved.

Thank you for having me today.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Julie Dabrusin

Thank you.

We will now begin the question and answer period.

Mr. Hogg, you have seven minutes.

October 2nd, 2018 / 11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Gordie Hogg Liberal South Surrey—White Rock, BC

Thank you both very much for your presentation. I note that the bill is entitled an “act respecting a national strategy for the repatriation of aboriginal cultural property”, and when I go through the information you provided to us, the word “indigenous” is used quite consistently throughout. Do you see any conflict between the use of those words? Do you think one is preferable?

11:25 a.m.

Co-founder, Bigstone Empowerment Society

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Gordie Hogg Liberal South Surrey—White Rock, BC

No?

Mr. Oliver, would you comment?

11:25 a.m.

Director, Research, Canadian Museum of History

Dr. Dean Oliver

In our remarks, we've used “aboriginal” in reference to the bill as written, and “indigenous” as a more inclusive term whenever an adjective was required.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Gordie Hogg Liberal South Surrey—White Rock, BC

Other people have different interpretations of that across Canada, in terms of a utilization that would more broadly engage Métis and other groups.

11:25 a.m.

Director, Research, Canadian Museum of History

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Gordie Hogg Liberal South Surrey—White Rock, BC

Mr. Oliver, you made reference to areas in which you thought the bill was too expansive and imprecise. Can you highlight some of those areas and the changes you might see with respect to them?

11:25 a.m.

Director, Research, Canadian Museum of History

Dr. Dean Oliver

It makes reference to material to be repatriated that is “of interest” to the requester, which limits a request to neither material that is ethnoculturally related to a requester nor materials that are indeed indigenous at all. The bill as written would make Paul Henderson's jersey as much a subject of a possible repatriation request as the ancestral remains of a chief or family member.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Gordie Hogg Liberal South Surrey—White Rock, BC

Mr. Gladue, do you have any comment on that?

11:25 a.m.

Co-founder, Bigstone Empowerment Society

Travis Gladue

He took the words pretty much right out of my mouth.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Gordie Hogg Liberal South Surrey—White Rock, BC

Them you'd share the position that it needs to be tightened? Do you have any wording that you would see as being appropriate for tightening that?

11:25 a.m.

Director, Research, Canadian Museum of History

Dr. Dean Oliver

In my remarks, I suggested a couple of things, such as “associated with” or “attributed to”. The other wording in my remarks would put the onus in part on the requester to demonstrate affinity with the items being requested.

There are all kinds of ways in which this becomes quite important in a repatriation discussion, not least because requests for repatriation for the same items or from the same geographical area may originate from multiple first nations. It is in part historical research and in part oral tradition and traditional knowledge that help determine what those connections are, but relationship to the material being requested is a key criterion in adjudicating any repatriation request. In the absence of that specificity, any regime that tries to make a determination will fall on hard times.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

Gordie Hogg Liberal South Surrey—White Rock, BC

Often in bills and legislation there's a preamble that talks about the intent in a broad-based way. Do you think there's value in adding a preamble to that talks about the incredible importance of the first people of our country and the contributions they've made and that it breaks down into this being part of it? Do you think there needs to be a mission or vision statement around that?

Mr. Gladue could comment first.

11:30 a.m.

Co-founder, Bigstone Empowerment Society

Travis Gladue

It's definitely a vital component. I agree. Understanding the history will provide identity and will also work into this intergenerational trauma, especially with the younger people who have identity issues. Having that will empower and it will help bridge a lot of gaps as well, because there are many people who don't understand, and lack of knowledge is very apparent in some cases. Being able to provide that insight would definitely fill in those gaps.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

Gordie Hogg Liberal South Surrey—White Rock, BC

There was reference made to it in a number of other places, but I was just wondering. You're suggesting perhaps having that within this bill or legislation as a preamble or a statement around the incredible contributions made to this country through the first nations, aboriginal people who have been here in some parts for well over 10,000 years. There would be some reference to those types of things.

Do you think that takes away from the intent of it, or does that contextualize it in a meaningful way?

11:30 a.m.

Director, Research, Canadian Museum of History

Dr. Dean Oliver

I would think the latter, that it would contextualize it in a meaningful way and would potentially take nothing away from what I see at the moment in the text of the bill or the understanding of its intention from the sponsoring member.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

Gordie Hogg Liberal South Surrey—White Rock, BC

Do you have some phraseology that you might apply to that?

11:30 a.m.

Director, Research, Canadian Museum of History

Dr. Dean Oliver

At the moment, I do not, nor did I prepare any for this morning's meeting.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

Gordie Hogg Liberal South Surrey—White Rock, BC

My plan was to trick you.

What do you think are the elements that it should contain?

11:30 a.m.

Co-founder, Bigstone Empowerment Society

Travis Gladue

It's interesting that you bring that up, because before I came across these findings, these artifacts were kept in a basement at the Royal Alberta Museum for years. Nobody knew about them. They weren't highlighted. They weren't displayed. Therefore, right then and there, that identity element is not being shown, not being highlighted.

The way I see it, why should these museums keep these items, these artifacts, if they're not even displaying them in their own museums? Again it goes back to providing that insight, providing that knowledge, but also working together collectively.

To add to what my colleague was saying, I agree that there obviously needs to be consultation, but also that input as mentioned. Definitely.