Evidence of meeting #122 for Canadian Heritage in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was repatriation.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Dean Oliver  Director, Research, Canadian Museum of History
Travis Gladue  Co-founder, Bigstone Empowerment Society
David Yurdiga  Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, CPC
Chief Morley Googoo  Regional Chief, Nova Scotia/Newfoundland and Labrador, Assembly of First Nations
Sarah Pash  Executive Director, Aanischaaukamikw Cree Cultural Institute
Ruth Phillips  Professor, The Great Lakes Research Alliance for the Study of Aboriginal Arts & Cultures
Anong Migwans Beam  Executive Director, Ojibwe Cultural Foundation, The Great Lakes Research Alliance for the Study of Aboriginal Arts & Cultures
Wayne Long  Saint John—Rothesay, Lib.

12:40 p.m.

Saint John—Rothesay, Lib.

Wayne Long

Yes. Okay. Thank you very much.

Ms. Beam, can you add to that?

12:40 p.m.

Executive Director, Ojibwe Cultural Foundation, The Great Lakes Research Alliance for the Study of Aboriginal Arts & Cultures

Anong Migwans Beam

We are currently grateful recipients of MAP funding. My take on it is that it's an incredible program, but it's a program, and now, because there is no core funding for institutions like ours, we end up having to shoehorn our own maintenance and objectives and ongoing activities into the format of MAP.

If you're successful in accessing this program, it goes on for two years. Considering we've been running since 1974 and are anticipating many great decades ahead, MAP would be absolutely exquisite if we were fully funded with core organizing in place and we could use MAP for specific projects. That would be ideal.

12:40 p.m.

Saint John—Rothesay, Lib.

Wayne Long

Thank you.

This question will be for Chief Googoo, Ms. Pash and Ms. Beam.

12:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Julie Dabrusin

I warn you that you have 45 seconds.

12:40 p.m.

Saint John—Rothesay, Lib.

Wayne Long

I can't get that into 45 seconds, but I'm going to try.

My riding is Saint John—Rothesay, the traditional territory of the Mi'kmaq and Passamaquoddy, but we don't have a significant population of indigenous people in our community. Our office tried to get an elder to speak at an event. We couldn't even get anybody. That's a problem in Saint John—Rothesay, so folks in my community aren't aware of the rich indigenous history of Saint John—Rothesay.

The intent of the bill is to help facilitate the repatriation of indigenous cultural artifacts, including, as per subclause 3(b), by encouraging the owners, custodians and trustees of aboriginal cultural property to return such property to the indigenous groups where they rightfully belong.

As indigenous leaders, do you believe that all indigenous cultural property ought to be returned to the possession of the indigenous group, or is there room, for example, for a non-indigenous museum like the New Brunswick Museum to be involved in having artifacts?

12:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Julie Dabrusin

Unfortunately, I'm going to have to ask you to either submit that answer in writing or to bring it out through perhaps one of the other questions. We are getting tight on time.

We will now be going to Mr. Shields, please.

12:40 p.m.

Conservative

Martin Shields Conservative Bow River, AB

I will help you out, sir, because that's a very interesting question, and I would like to hear a response, because I think that's an important piece of this.

12:40 p.m.

Regional Chief, Nova Scotia/Newfoundland and Labrador, Assembly of First Nations

Regional Chief Morley Googoo

If you don't mind, I will go first.

I think it's a very important question, the whole thing, and telling our story. Canada is doing the right stuff in reconciliation, giving that space an opportunity for making a new relationship with indigenous people.

Education is lacking. We all went to school. What was taught in your books? I remember the Prime Minister said during the time we announced the TRC calls to action that he went to a private school. He said he wasn't going to make it secret. He was in a private school and he guessed everybody knows that, but when they got to the indigenous chapter, the teacher said they should skip it because it was boring.

In today's society we all strive toward bringing better values of diversity of our people and all that, but look at what happened in Nova Scotia when we had the Cornwallis statue situation, and everywhere else. Non-education brings racism and doesn't bring out the good values of our people.

If you look at first contact—not the show, but first contact itself—it was like an Atlantic tsunami wave that comes and erases the culture. When you find nobody in New Brunswick and Nova Scotia, it's because the tsunami wave was first contact. The wave didn't reach B.C. Then we ask why B.C. has all these very cultural vibrant places. The wave comes back. We're affected the most and the longest by with European contact.

This is why we need repatriation of those items to properly tell those stories, because right now our people are trying to learn their identity. Remember—one minute, and I'm closing on this—we were labelled Indians, then savages, then Indians again, then aboriginals, then after the longest time everybody was comfortable with first nations people. Then overnight we were indigenous people. We keep getting relabelled because we can't tell our own story. We have other people telling us on our behalf who we are.

I'm Mi'kmaq. The day will come when it's not a hindrance on the government that there are too many tribes. There are 58 tribes here. Embrace that. Don't look at it as a problem. We're not the Indian problem. There's a vibrant diversity of cultures here. My kids need to learn the Mi'kmaq way, but they have learned the Algonquin way, the Cree, the Dene. They borrowed those styles because they really wanted to be part of the identity of an indigenous person. I need to be able to teach them properly by bringing some of that stuff back home properly, whether it's tapes or whatever.

12:45 p.m.

Conservative

Martin Shields Conservative Bow River, AB

But the question is how we get it to the other sources. You get it back; then how do you share it with us?

12:45 p.m.

Regional Chief, Nova Scotia/Newfoundland and Labrador, Assembly of First Nations

Regional Chief Morley Googoo

I just got on the phone this morning about the Smithsonian and the position of the CMM.

There are some artifacts that cannot be moved. There is a sweat lodge with branches and everything that are preserved. If you move those, they will fall apart. They are frail.

It has to be a co-development. When we say “co-development”, we're not saying we need to develop our own legislation and put our efforts there. It's more important that we teach everyone. We want to go into partnership with those museums and share, but having the flexibility that some of that stuff is going to go back home to our people is so important and critical.

12:45 p.m.

Executive Director, Aanischaaukamikw Cree Cultural Institute

Dr. Sarah Pash

In terms of the question about what stays in museums and what goes back to communities, the key is really that indigenous communities and nations need to be the leaders in the discussion, because the expertise about the objects lies in the communities.

In my opening remarks I talked about the fact that within mainstream museums, within museums in the south that are outside our territory, where our objects have ended up, we know there are objects there that have not been properly taken care of. The expertise to take care of these properties lies within our communities, because it's based in our spirituality and our tradition. What goes back and what stays needs to be placed in the hands of indigenous communities.

October 2nd, 2018 / 12:45 p.m.

Conservative

Martin Shields Conservative Bow River, AB

We've gone past that. Suppose you have it back; you have your stories; you know it. How do you then share that with us? That's the question.

I'm past it being in a museum. It's back; you have it, you understand it, and you're teaching it. How do you share that, then, with us?

12:45 p.m.

Executive Director, Aanischaaukamikw Cree Cultural Institute

Dr. Sarah Pash

We have great relationships that we've developed with southern museums. We have loan agreements with them. We also develop our own travelling exhibits that we share with museums across the country.

Just now we have a travelling exhibit, entitled “Footprints: A Walk Through Generations”, that highlights important aspects of our culture and our history. It will be travelling across the country. It will be at the national Museum of History for quite an extended stay.

12:50 p.m.

Conservative

Martin Shields Conservative Bow River, AB

Can you get it out of the museums? Can you get those artifacts out of structures and get them into the communities? That's where I'm going.

The museum across the river is a great one, but what percentage of Canadians ever go there?

12:50 p.m.

Executive Director, Aanischaaukamikw Cree Cultural Institute

Dr. Sarah Pash

It's all about creating partnerships and collaborations. Those have to be well thought out, but the will is there on both sides in terms of indigenous cultural institutes such as ours and in terms of southern museums and other public education organizations.

I don't think it's a huge concern. I know it's just all about developing partnerships and collaborations, and the will is authentically there.

12:50 p.m.

Conservative

Martin Shields Conservative Bow River, AB

Okay, great.

12:50 p.m.

Executive Director, Ojibwe Cultural Foundation, The Great Lakes Research Alliance for the Study of Aboriginal Arts & Cultures

Anong Migwans Beam

I'd just mention that anybody who has been in the collection rooms of indigenous collections at the Royal Ontario Museum, or any of these other museums, will understand the sheer volume of artifacts that we're talking about. This is in no way going to lead to an emptying out of these institutions. What we're talking about is the ability to pick certain items that relate directly to our communities—stories and techniques that we are specifically trying to revive—and creating online exhibitions and touring exhibitions that we can share with all Canadians.

These artifacts that have languished in storage, that for certain anthropologists or museum directors hold not that much interest, from our community's standpoint can tell huge stories and be life-changing.

I had the experience of showing a ceramic shard to a first nations ceramicist on Manitoulin Island. He has been practising ceramics his whole life and was consistently told that what he was doing was not traditional. I was able to show him a pot that dated from year zero, a photograph, and to see this man's face as he realized that he was part of his own tradition.... We want to build on that. We want to share back to that.

There is also an assumption that first nation centres primarily serve our own people in our mandate, and we do, but our visitorship is broad and huge. It comes from all walks of Canadians.

12:50 p.m.

Conservative

Martin Shields Conservative Bow River, AB

I'm not worrying about you emptying museums. Don't worry about that. It needs to go back to where it belongs, so don't worry about emptying museums. That's not a concern.

12:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Julie Dabrusin

Right.

12:50 p.m.

Conservative

Martin Shields Conservative Bow River, AB

Thank you.

12:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Julie Dabrusin

Thank you.

Monsieur Nantel is next.

12:50 p.m.

NDP

Pierre Nantel NDP Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I want to thank everyone.

Your testimony is extremely deep. It is a look at the issue of aboriginal artifacts. It's not theory, and it is not a set of columns in a budget; we are discussing the entire relationship with history.

Ms. Beam, as an artist—and I have noted that you are an excellent painter—and as a member of the aboriginal commissioners collective, you had to talk to an artist who had closer look at what is happening at the Smithsonian Institution. You could not get that information firsthand. It's not something you could go see.

I understand very well what you just explained by giving the example of your ceramicist colleague from Manitoulin Island. This goes beyond cultural mediation with “white southerners”. It's a search for personal and emotional identity.

Ms. Phillips provided a list of works that need to be found. I am under the impression that the ideal is often the worst enemy of the better. I foresee many complex steps to be made, but I got the impression from Ms. Pash that it was urgent to stipulate that, with the exception of gifts made to consuls or ambassadors, overall, a sort of pillaging has taken place. You are claiming the right to not only recover the items, but also obtain damages. That is part of the reconciliation movement.

Ms. Pash or Ms. Beam, would you like to answer this question?

12:50 p.m.

Executive Director, Ojibwe Cultural Foundation, The Great Lakes Research Alliance for the Study of Aboriginal Arts & Cultures

Anong Migwans Beam

Yes, it definitely is. This is a big healing. It's a chance for all these artifacts....

I wanted to propose concrete steps to moving forward, especially when an institution has an artifact and it's proposed that it be repatriated to a home community or an interested community. In our instance—say, if it were this bag we were looking for—I would propose from the Ojibwe Cultural Foundation, because we have a workshop and because of the way our foundation is laid out, that we have a display of the past for the museum, a contemporary art space for the present, and an open studio for craftspeople for the future.

If there were a piece like this that we were interested in, I would like to see the piece come back and be examined by our craftspeople, and that we would create a replica and then return the replica to the institution it was repatriated from. In that way that community would have a more engaged understanding of the artifact they have returned home and we would create a relationship between our institutions and perhaps learn how they do their caretaking and their museological studies and all of that kind of thing.

12:55 p.m.

NDP

Pierre Nantel NDP Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC

Thank you.

Ms. Pash, go ahead.

12:55 p.m.

Executive Director, Aanischaaukamikw Cree Cultural Institute

Dr. Sarah Pash

In terms of reclaiming our ways, our spirituality and our practices, repatriation is really important to us.

I spoke about the woman's hood that we found in a museum in Montreal. Those hoods are similar to hoods used by other Algonquian nations, like the M'ikmaq, and they are a very important part of spiritual practice and our ceremonial lives. The hoods have not been seen in our communities since the 1800s, and the knowledge of them is very quickly dying out.

The ability to repatriate those types of items has a lot to do with community healing, our spiritual health and renewing our ceremonial lives. As a nation that has been dealing with European incursion into our territories since the mid-1600s, with the early missionary work and the residential school experiences and all the fallout from all that history, before we lose this generation of elders, we are trying desperately to reclaim those types of knowledge and that type of ceremonial knowledge and the ability to truly come into ourselves and our identity in a very deep and spiritual way.

These types of objects are key to that. The ability to do research within our communities with these objects is the most important way we have found of reviving those traditions and that ceremonial life.