Canadian Heritage Committee on Oct. 18th, 2018

[Wayne Long, Saint John—Rothesay, Lib.]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses this morning.

Look, while heritage is essential to all peoples, there's no question that indigenous people have had the least control over theirs, so I just want to give a shout-out to MP Casey for Bill C-391. I think it's very meaningful, and it can change the way we look at history, for sure.

My first question is for you, Ms. Collison. You mentioned in your presentation that you want other organizations, groups, countries, what have you, to want to give back indigenous cultural property. How realistic is that? Where do you think we are right now with respect to their wanting to give that back? How much work do we need to do?

[Nika Collison]

I think in Canada over the past 20 years, our own work around ancestors—and it's truly transforming to be working at that level of repatriation—has fortified our relationships with major institutions across Canada, as well as in the United States. That comes from working together. We're a little afraid of law and a little afraid of policy, but we also understand the benefit of it.

Our relationship—

[Wayne Long]

Can I just jump in here? Is it a cultural shift you're talking about, to want—

[Nika Collison]

We're shaping a hybrid culture of indigenous nations and nation-state or mainstream museums. The work that is happening is shifting the societal discourse, essentially, because in the work we've done with institutions, which is what I think this bill should focus on, we celebrate in the media with these institutions. As long as they're working with us, they aren't the face of colonial history.

Celebrating the work we do in the media and through documentaries and through our museum, and mainstream museums, brings a greater education to the greater public and inspires individuals to send home or repatriate incredible treasures, and also our relatives. We've had people send home relatives; they didn't realize when they first took them what they were actually doing.

Educating, celebrating and continuing to move forward are spurring huge change in society, in our opinion, but there is so much work to be done, particularly education around the history: why our ancestors and treasures wound up in museums, and how we can make things right and move forward.

[Wayne Long]

Thanks for that.

What would you recommend that we, as the federal government, do to help with that? What can we do to help make the museum in Washington or another country or another group or what have you...? What can we do to aid in this process?

[Nika Collison]

A bill like the one that's being proposed, as long as it's kept broad.... This is the conundrum. This is where I think more time is needed to discuss it with the mainstream museums that we work actively with, along with indigenous nations across Canada, who should be the key stakeholders. We need more discussion before we do something like pass an important bill such as this. More time is needed to do such a thing.

[Wayne Long]

You've led me right into my next question. I was surprised to hear you say that the process needs to slow down a bit. You just think we're moving too fast. Do you want to pause? Can you just elaborate as to why you're so concerned that we're moving too fast?

[Nika Collison]

When I first looked at the bill with some colleagues and friends, it was sort of a blind side for us to even have it come out. Again, though, I thank Mr. Casey so much for initiating this process. I do understand from the minutes of the second hearing that it was asserted that some good consultation with indigenous nations and museums had happened. In my case—and I work with indigenous people and mainstream museums across Canada—it was something that none of us were necessarily expecting. It's such a great idea, but it does need more consultation.

It's not a negative response to the bill. It's saying that we've been doing this work for decades. We've been forging paths with museums and changing the way we live our lives together. That's not going to stop, but can we just back up a little bit and come together to discuss this bill so that it really works for indigenous people, mainstream museums, and the greater Canadian society? It's not to halt it. It's to slow it down, and think and engage harder.

[Wayne Long]

Thanks for that.

My riding is Saint John—Rothesay. It's in southern New Brunswick. It's a riding in a city that has a strong indigenous heritage but a very small indigenous population. How can a national action plan for the repatriation of aboriginal cultural property be designed in a manner than ensures that more non-indigenous Canadians learn about indigenous history, indigenous rights, and the process of reconciliation? How can we make sure that our communities are included in that education also?

[Nika Collison]

What I've found.... My father said a long time ago, “Why would we do to others what was done to us?” At least from a Haida world view, we have to work very closely with our nation on what is acceptable to put out and what isn't. For example, burial materials are not always the ideal thing to put on exhibit. It really needs to be indigenous-led. The majority of the treasures that have left our ancestors did so through theft or force. Again, as I said earlier, I would assert strongly that the majority of the material culture that left between 1885 and 1951, the life of the potlatch ban, did so under duress, so they're not—

[The Chair, Liberal, Julie Dabrusin]

That brings us to the end of your time. You're actually overtime now, Mr. Long.

We're going to go to Mr. Blaney for about four minutes.

[Steven Blaney, Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, CPC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Ms. Collison and Mr. Doore for coming out in support of Bill C-391, an act respecting a national strategy for the repatriation of aboriginal cultural property.

My first question is for both of you. Do you have an inventory of the artifacts of your nation throughout the world that are spread through other museums?

Maybe you can begin, Mr. Doore. Do you have an idea of the number of artifacts within your new museum, the Blackfoot Crossing Historical Park? You mentioned the Crowfoot artifact and so on.

[Clement Doore]

The artifacts that are currently at the Blackfoot Crossing Historical Park were already available to us and they were simply transferred. I have a long list of those artifacts, but in regard to other artifacts that exist in other museums, we know of some of them and some museums are starting to communicate with us.

The second place our artifacts are stored is with private collectors. They want millions of dollars for them, but we can't afford that.

[Steven Blaney]

So your artifacts are either in other museums or in private collections.

Ms. Collison, what about you? Do you have a type of mapping, or would you find it interesting in a national strategy to know where the artifacts of your ancestors are located or are exposed throughout the world?

[Nika Collison]

Our nation has been researching this since 2006, I believe. To date, over 300 museums have been contacted, and we know well over 12,000 of our physical objects to be held in these museums around the world, including places such as India. We lost potential pieces in the fire at the museum in Brazil. We know of pieces in Australia. I could go on and on.

There are problems with provenance. A lot of the time, when these pieces were collected, they were called Haida but they might be Tsimshian manufacture, or called Tsimshian but they might be Haida manufacture; or they're simply labelled “northwest coast”. There is a lot of work that we still need to do on that.

We have an inventory. We know that so many of the indigenous nations that we and the Royal British Columbia Museum are working with are just starting out, and we do need to find ways to support this research and create databases. I've done a lot of thinking about a national database, and I don't know that it would be feasible, given the thousands and thousands of pieces out there by the more than 600 indigenous nations in Canada.

[Steven Blaney]

Ms. Collison, is private collection an issue for you? Are there many Haida artifacts in the hands of private owners?

[Nika Collison]

There are a ton of treasures with private owners, and actually, after that initial repatriation of the totem poles from the Royal British Columbia Museum—

[Steven Blaney]

Okay, I'm just rushed—

[Nika Collison]

We can't force private people, but we can encourage, educate and build relationships. That's how we've built the majority of our collection.

[Steven Blaney]

I have just one last question. Do you see benefit to having some artifacts exposed, as you mentioned, in other places in the world so that the culture is exposed elsewhere?

[The Chair, Liberal, Julie Dabrusin]

Maybe take half a minute.

[Nika Collison]

Yes. First and foremost, we have Haida who live around the world, but also, we love to share and educate, as long as we have a say on how it's presented and shared with the world.

[Steven Blaney]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Julie Dabrusin]

Mr. Clement Doore and Ms. Nika Collison, thank you for being part of our first panel. That was really interesting for all of us, and I appreciate it. Thank you for bearing through some of our technical challenges.

We are going to suspend briefly so that we can get our next panel up.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Julie Dabrusin]

I want to let the francophone members and everyone who needs French interpretation know that the third witness, Aluki Kotierk, will be giving her evidence in Inuktitut. The interpretation will be from Inuktitut to English, then from English to French, so there will be a delay. I'm announcing it so that everyone will be ready for the delay.

We have with us Lucy Bell, from the Royal British Columbia Museum, who will be speaking by video conference.

We have present with us right now President Clément Chartier, from the Métis National Council.

Also here with us is President Aluki Kotierk, of Nunavut Tunngavik Inc.

We have everyone at the table.

We will start with the video conference, just in case we run into other technical difficulties this morning. Could we begin, please, with Lucy Bell, from the Royal British Columbia Museum?

You have time to make a presentation right now, if you'd like to begin.