Canadian Heritage Committee on Oct. 30th, 2018

[Emmanuel Madan]

I would say that the purely digital arts market is not yet well established, so it's very difficult to know. Each artist does things in their own way. Transactions are done on a piecemeal basis.

The network I represent is made up of independent creators. Some independent creators working in the audiovisual sector have every opportunity to show their works and films on international platforms such as Netflix and so on. However, discoverability is a challenge on those major platforms. Our artists are not given a choice showcase. They are pushed to the back pages.

[Pierre Nantel, NDP, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

I understand. Algorithms have that perverse effect.

Ms. Grandmont-Bérubé, you mentioned your reluctance about resale rights for the first transaction.

I completely understand you. Since I come from the record business myself, I believe that the parallels that have been drawn recently—I think even during the previous hour of the meeting—between a record producer and an emerging artist's first album are appropriate. I do believe that's precisely the role of gallery owners. Of course, far be it from me to interfere with the emergence and distribution of new talents.

However, you mentioned that, for you, the main problem is the resale right on the primary market. Different models have been presented. CARFAC has presented its model. Alexandre Taillefer, whom everyone knows, has already expressed his support for the proposal for resale rights in visual arts in the model presented by SODRAC, if I remember correctly. In any case, I am sure he has already expressed his support for one of the two formulas.

If we were to remove the resale right aspect from the primary market, the first gallery owner who offers a work for sale, would that then change everything for you?

[Émilie Grandmont-Bérubé]

Actually, resale rights are not offered at the primary level, they are offered at the first resale. What is very important is the issue of selling at a loss or at a profit. The resale right, if it is to be applied, is from...

The models differ. For example, in California—the only American state that has included resale rights in its legislation—resale rights only apply to living artists. I'm sorry, let me try again; they only apply to works that are sold for more than $1,000, and only when the work is sold at a higher price than the one at which it was purchased, after taking inflation into account.

[Pierre Nantel, NDP, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

I am very pleased with the clarifications you are making because, based on your initial remarks, it was a bad idea and it was all a communist plot.

[Émilie Grandmont-Bérubé]

I don't think it's about communism.

From the outset, this is a measure that has an extremely negative impact on the market.

[Pierre Nantel, NDP, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Would that be a negative impact of 5% ?

[Émilie Grandmont-Bérubé]

In reality, it is 5% more. However, the impact on a fragile market like Canada's is much more serious. That's quite significant, to be honest.

[Pierre Nantel, NDP, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

It's not very politically correct of me, but I can't help raising my eyebrows when I hear that.

Unfortunately, the reality is that very few people around this table buy art, even though we all have good salaries of about $160,000 a year. Very few of us buy works of art.

For the time being, there is an ecosystem of creative artists that we must value—I see that Ms. Bertrand wants to comment. They are creators who want to achieve their potential and create works of art.

Right now, institutions and wealthy people interested in the visual arts are the ones who buy works. I therefore find it hard to believe that a 5% penalty, which could ensure the sustainability of the career of a living artist, such as Ms. Pootoogook, is drastic. She is a perfect example of what I am talking about.

I know there are social dimensions related to First Nations, but the reality is that some artists have lived in poverty all their lives and, after their death, their works have been sold for huge amounts of money compared to the initial prices they may have received. There's a direct parallel to music.

I would like you to answer, and I would also like to hear Ms. Bertrand's point of view.

[The Chair, Liberal, Julie Dabrusin]

Unfortunately, we don't have enough time.

[Pierre Nantel, NDP, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

How unfortunate!

[The Chair, Liberal, Julie Dabrusin]

We'll continue with Mr. Boissonnault for five minutes.

[Randy Boissonnault]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I invite my colleague and friend Mr. Nantel to do his research. After coming out of the closet, I had, for seven years, a partner who was a visual artist. So I buy works of art. The walls of my house are covered with works that I paid for. I think you have to surround yourself with art.

Ms. Grandmont-Bérubé, the worst thing you can do to artists is tell them how talented they are and how beautiful their works are, and leave the gallery without buying anything. That's an insult.

Either say nothing or talk about the weather, but don't say how beautiful their art is and walk away without buying anything.

I only have five minutes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Julie Dabrusin]

You have four left.

[Randy Boissonnault]

Okay.

I would like Mr. Madan, from the Visual Arts Alliance, and Ms. Bertrand to tell me about the link between better data and better income for artists.

This is the first time we have heard that this committee must partner with Statistics Canada, or with Statistics Canada and the government, to collect better socio-economic data in order to put more money into the hands of artists.

I need that in one minute or less. What's the link?

[Anne Bertrand]

We need to make a case for the visual arts as an integrated system that operates with many parts and that recognizes the complexities of today's figure of the artist and his or her remuneration. Without that, it's really hard for us to make a case because there's no agreement on whether the system is actually improving, decreasing, losing or gaining.

The Visual Arts Alliance has been asking Canadian Heritage for data since I started at ARCA in 2012. We have a very good study by Guy Bellavance of the INRS. It gives us the whole action plan to produce this data.

[Randy Boissonnault]

All governments, whether they be Conservative, Liberal or another stripe, sometimes use the data argument as a defensive strategy because they don't want to move: “If you get better data, then maybe we can do something, but without the data we can't do anything. Our hands are tied.”

My advice to you is to hook your wagon to minority communities. We know that minority communities are overrepresented in the arts community. People of colour, LGBTQ2, indigenous, women, francophones in the west, anglophones in Quebec—find the minority communities that we know are overrepresented among artists and make sure that this is also a way to get their data story told, through the data.

This will give you a very strong argument.

Is that part of your plan?

[Anne Bertrand]

I believe you're saying that they're under-represented—

[Randy Boissonnault]

No, no. We know that minority communities are well represented in the artistic community, because in many cases it's what they choose to do to survive, because of discrimination and other.... If you can work with the visual artists community and make sure that the intersectionality is there,

I think your argument will be better.

[Anne Bertrand]

Artist-run centres have been representing cultural communities in minority situations since the beginning. AGAVF—L'Association des groupes en arts visuels francophones—is a member of the Visual Arts Alliance, and we have indigenous artist-run centres. We have had indigenous artist-run centres since the 1990s, if not earlier.

[Randy Boissonnault]

It's just a piece of advice that there is strength in numbers.

Monsieur Madan, you made a very interesting argument that you wanted the CRA to apply the rules better. Could you include that in your submission? What do you mean, and do you have examples of when the rules have not been applied, defavourizing your members? That would be helpful for us to understand.

[Emmanuel Madan]

Yes.

[Randy Boissonnault]

Can you give us an example of how not applying the rules properly has affected your members?

[Emmanuel Madan]

Sure. Because of particular procedural-level stuff that happens at the CRA at the moment, artists are disproportionately targeted for reassessments because by default they are not recognized by CRA as self-employed. The minute they declare any revenue as self-employed income, because they are business people and this is the appropriate way for them to declare it, the CRA tends to have a problem with that.

That starts a chain reaction, which often leads to artists.... They run their businesses by themselves. They don't have an accounting department. They are often simply not equipped to respond to the requests. They wind up paying the amount, even though by law they are not liable for it.

[Randy Boissonnault]

I appreciate that. We have to pause you there.

[The Chair, Liberal, Julie Dabrusin]

Mr. Blaney wanted one minute to ask a question. That clock is a bit ahead of time, so I'm going to give him one minute.