Canadian Heritage Committee on Nov. 22nd, 2018

[John Degen]

Yes.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

So your reference was your relationship was based on the most recent legislation, which you have real difficulty with.

[Eric Enno Tamm]

Yes. The Writers' Union has asked for significant statutory damages, and that has not been put into the revision.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

Okay. Thank you.

[David Yurdiga, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, CPC]

The biggest concern I have is ever since the digital platform became the platform that everyone wants to be on.... Is it competition that's driving the net income down? What is the mechanism? Why is there such a large drop from 20 years ago to today?

Mr. Tamm, can you add to that?

[Allan Bell]

We mapped our print materials by year of publication. The upload zenith of print publication was 1989. I was still an undergraduate. When I was an undergraduate, there were photocopy rooms where you would go and photocopy journals and you would photocopy chapters from books, and that was how it worked.

Since then, in this last fiscal year, we are at the same level of print publication in 2017 as we were in about 1957 or 1958. It went up until 1989 and has plummeted. That is what is in the Access Copyright repertoire. That is actually the biggest challenge. The universities certainly have switched from buying print materials to buying digital materials. Those digital materials are provided by publishers through their platforms and they're licensed annually. The reproduction and distribution are actually part of it, and we authenticate our users to be able to use that content in the context of education.

I think that's really the largest thing that's hurting...not necessarily publishers like those here, but small Canadian publishers like Broadview Press. This digital disruption and the fact that we've shifted from buying print books to e-books, from buying print journals to e-journals, has really been the hardest thing, both for the authors and for the publishers, I would argue.

There needs to be some help for the author community and the publisher community to help with that digital shift.

I was about to say that I worked for a company where our sole purpose was to keep it so that academic publishers did not have to sell their journals to large publishers. This is a real thing, and it's been happening in my lifetime.

[The Chair, Liberal, Julie Dabrusin]

We'll go on to Mr. Blaney now.

[Steven Blaney, Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, CPC]

Thank you.

I have one minute, I believe.

[The Chair, Liberal, Julie Dabrusin]

You have four minutes, Mr. Blaney.

[Steven Blaney]

It's four. Okay, fantastic.

Yesterday the government announced they were pouring in millions to create Canadian content, and yet you've just provided an example that could be an easy fix to prevent the loss of 3,800 jobs. You've mentioned that the investment is dropping in educational materials, and also that the quantity and the quality of textbooks is diminishing because of a legislative....

Can you come back to the impact of the fact that you are losing a lot of money now and our students are losing those Canadian textbooks? Can you tell us about the problem and the easy fix that could have been addressed a few weeks ago when Minister Morneau tabled his economic update?

[David Swail]

First of all, I don't want to leave the impression that any of our members is at death's door. The reality is that digital has been a wonderful opportunity for us, and we're taking full advantage of it and we're engaging, as has been said by my colleagues, in a lot of very meaningful ways, primarily in post-secondary and not so much in K-to-12. I can come back to that.

What's concerning is when the commercial marketplace for those ancillary usages is undermined by certain interpretations of what fair dealing really means. The $30 million that we're talking about that has gone to creators is not really much in the grand scheme of things in terms of educational funding in this country, but it's a very significant chunk to creators. As a result of that, publishers find it more difficult to engage authors. Certain publishers have made the decision that if the bucket has that many holes in the bottom of it, they'll go and do something else, so they're no longer creating textbooks for that sector.

Our ask is really to restore the commercial viability of the marketplace for the use that used to be made under licence.

To the earlier question around principles, my answer would be that it's the commercial viability of the market that's the key question. I don't believe that the CMA, the Copyright Modernization Act, in 2012 intended to undermine the commercial viability of the market for educational resources, but that is what we have found five or six years in. It's because of a certain interpretation of what fair dealing really means.

[Steven Blaney]

You're saying it's an unintended consequence of the Copyright Act that it has created huge damage to the Canadian educational content.

[David Swail]

Absolutely, and our solution, which you also asked about, is to really re-engage with educators to create a digital commons that can answer those needs that have largely been dealt with in photocopy rooms in the K-to-12 sector in particular, and to work collaboratively with that sector to use digital technology to help students, to help educators, and do it in a more meaningful way and demonstrate commercial value and commercial viability in a way that will restore that relationship.

[Steven Blaney]

In a nutshell, you're asking for a clarification of what you call the fair dealing provision in the Copyright Act so we can restore the market, which is important for creating this content, but not that much in terms of the cost for educational facilities.

Is there any comment from the university on that? You're the ones who are providing those funds and creating this wealth. I believe it is important to support that content within the mission of universities. Why have you interpreted the Copyright Act in such a way that is damaging to our educational textbooks and content?

[The Chair, Liberal, Julie Dabrusin]

You started with four minutes, and now you're out of time.

I see Mr. Nantel is smiling, so he might pursue similar questioning.

Go ahead, Mr. Nantel.

[Pierre Nantel, NDP, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

I will, actually.

I think that is an excellent question. That said, I'd like you to provide the briefest possible answers.

Earlier, Ms. Therrien raised the fact that basically, publishers and authors are paying for the new digital economic model, so much so that they are actively looking for income. The market is disrupted thanks to digital technology and the big international platforms.

What do you think of that, Mr. Tamm or Mr. Degen?

[Eric Enno Tamm]

I'd like to ask the committee not to get distracted by digital disruption. Don't use that to distract you from the fact that the education sector is illegally copying works of authors.

[Pierre Nantel, NDP, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Thank you.

[Eric Enno Tamm]

These are two separate issues. Don't worry about it. Every day, we work as authors and try to earn a living.

[Pierre Nantel, NDP, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

I understand.

[Eric Enno Tamm]

It's tough.

[Pierre Nantel, NDP, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Mr. Tamm, you know that I am totally on your side. I'm trying hard to be objective, but of course I'm on your side.

All kidding aside, I understand very well what you are saying, and that is why I asked you that question. We've often heard viewpoints expressed here that were a little off-kilter. Those who write scripts for television, for instance, say that they should be the producers, while producers refuse, saying that they are the ones who created the series.

When people see all their money being stolen by international platforms that do not pay tax to Canada and do not respect our quotas, and see the government turning a blind eye and see that things will not change until 2024, they of course doggedly go after the few crumbs that are still on the table.

My question is now addressed to you, Ms. Therrien and Mr. Bell. Is there fair use when it comes to your electricity bills?

[Wendy Therrien]

Thank you for that question.

Fair use has ben a right since 1921, so it has been around a long time. That principle is interpreted in many different ways according to the context. The issue is, rather, how each university makes sure it follows the rules and decides how it will react if something is not done in compliance with them. I am going to let Mr. Bell reply.

[Pierre Nantel, NDP, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Okay.

[Wendy Therrien]

Mr. Bell, could you give the steps that your university takes in terms of ensuring copyright compliance—