Canadian Heritage Committee on Jan. 31st, 2019

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

Thank you.

I think Mr. Long started down a line that I wanted to go to next, and that's the digital and transformation piece.

You were very specific on your answer, and I think a couple of times we've had people very specifically saying this. I think if we're looking at copyright, we need terms that are broader than just saying a couple of pieces of technology.

Would you have any suggestion of broader terms that you might use for technology in the copyright? If this is going forward, it has to be broader than just identifying a couple of pieces of technology.

Julien.

[Julien Castanié]

Excuse me, but I didn't quite understand your question. Could you please rephrase it?

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

You mentioned, specifically, a couple of pieces of technology equipment when we were talking about digital, but if we're going to do it in copyright it needs to be broader if it's going to be of any use in the future, in 10 to 15 years.

Would you have any broader terms that you might want to use for copyright?

[Julien Castanié]

You want me to talk about things more generally. That's a good question, but I can't talk to you in more global terms than I have so far.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

Okay. Thank you.

I'll move on to CAMDO.

My grandson fixed up a truck and he thought the value of the truck was this, and I said the value of the truck is what somebody is willing to pay for it. It doesn't matter what price you put on it, it's what people are willing to pay for it. It was an interesting lesson for him that you can put a zillion hours into something, but if people aren't willing to pay for it....

You have an extensive list of recommendations here. Can you narrow that down to copyright, and what is the most important one going forward for you?

[Robin Metcalfe]

I think the key point we're trying to make is the necessity of the various channels going forward at the same time, because one will affect the other. What we're concerned about with museums is that a copyright change that doesn't consider the impact on institutions may have unintended negative effects, not just for institutions, but for artists.

If it's copyright, then I would say that the most important thing is that the models being used are ones that minimize administrative burden on those who are employing or presenting copyrighted works, and that maximize the ability of resources to go through to the creators, without imposing an undue financial or administrative burden on other cultural institutions.

Does that answer your question?

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

Is the lending right an example of that?

[Robin Metcalfe]

The public lending right is an example of that, because of the way it's structured, yes. It does not apply an undue administrative or financial burden on libraries, but it does direct funds to writers and illustrators, etc., for the use of their work in public libraries. We're saying that a comparable system could be applied to some types of copyright for public museums and art galleries.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

How will the digital affect your world?

[Robin Metcalfe]

Did you want to answer that, Moira?

[Moira McCaffrey]

Perhaps I could mention the huge impact social media has on museums. There was a time when museums were famous for not allowing photography in exhibitions. Of course, part of that was to protect the works, because of flash and so on, but the other part was to protect the copyright of artists, who were not paid to allow the distribution of images.

We all know that time is over. It's impossible to control photography in exhibitions, and in fact, most major contemporary artists who have the means to allow photography to happen encourage it.

The reality is that many contemporary artists suffer because of the fact that their works are photographed and distributed widely on the Internet, and they are not recompensed in any way for that. That's going to be an important factor any time you mention the word “digital”. Museums struggle with that.

[Robin Metcalfe]

May I also add that putting collections online is a challenge, unless there's a mechanism, like the PLR mechanism, that allows artists to be recompensed for the use of their work without it being an administrative and financial cost to museums.

[The Chair, Liberal, Julie Dabrusin]

Thank you.

We continue now with Mr. Nantel for seven minutes.

[Pierre Nantel, NDP, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I would like to thank the witnesses for being here.

Mr. Castanié, I would like some clarification. Is most of your members' illustrative work created on commission or on their own initiative?

[Julien Castanié]

Illustration has the particular feature of responding to both of these notions. It can be both a commission, for example a poster, but the artistic creation born from this commission is a work of art, in fact. It is interesting to rethink this notion of control. Think about the royal commissions that have been made to great European artists over the centuries. It tells a lot about how these artists were funded.

[Pierre Nantel, NDP, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

You're saying here that all of Mozart's work was created in the name of an Austrian emperor or whoever.

With this in mind, your works are subject to a contract, where the method of payment is agreed upon with the user. The work remains yours, but a licence is granted under certain conditions to the professional user, who may be an author. That's what they say.

Are illustrators' rights better defended in other countries? Is there a resale or a moral right to their works? I can't help but think about the comic strip Astérix. Even if it isn't as popular in the English-speaking world, I think everyone here knows that it was illustrated by Uderzo and written by Goscinny. Is the copyright on the illustrations clearer in other countries?

[Julien Castanié]

Is there a moral right? Yes. It is intrinsic to the issue of copyright. Is there a resale right? Not in Canada, as far as I know. However, this famous resale right exists in more than 90 countries around the world, including France. More broadly, a resale right is when the original creator of a work receives a percentage of about 5%. This right is levied on successive sales of a work, when it passes from buyer to buyer. If the original artist sold a work of art for $100, then sold it for $1,000 later, or perhaps even $1 million later, the artist has an interest in this speculation.

[Pierre Nantel, NDP, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

I wouldn't want to look like I'm being funny, but you're getting me more involved. You return to the status of a work of art, not to the status of a commissioned illustration.

[Julien Castanié]

An illustration is a work of art. It's an idea that may be particular to understand. The work of art can be expressed in the creation of an illustration stemming from a commission, but also in the creation of an illustration at the sole initiative of the creator. I'm thinking of children's books, which may be the initiative of a writer-illustrator who decides to write a book and illustrate it. As such, it is a work of art subject to copyright, as are the works of all visual artists.

[Pierre Nantel, NDP, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

I'm going to make a hash of the issue. You are an illustrator, and you make illustrations for a children's book written by an author. It is a work that you make and that belongs to you, for which you grant a licence to the publisher or the author, or both. In such a case, is there a resale right that applies? If so, in what context does this apply?

[Julien Castanié]

There is no resale right in the case of such illustrations. When I was talking about resale right in Canada, I meant creating an illustration and selling it as an original. In the case of a children's book, as you pointed out, there is really a contract, where a user licence is granted and subject to a temporality, geographic space and support conditions. This corresponds to the copyright that is attached to the creation of the illustrations that have been made on the pages.

[Pierre Nantel, NDP, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Even if I know this subject well enough, I find it complex to see what applies and what doesn't. Even your answers gave rise to some misunderstandings.

Mr. Metcalfe and Ms. McCaffrey, on the topic of copyright, how resale rights are applied and, most importantly, your proposed public lending right, are there other countries where these changes have been made and where it works well?

[Robin Metcalfe]

The model I mentioned of PLR is one that has definitely been used in many other countries. I think one of the challenges for finding models in other countries for issues like exhibition right is that Canada has actually been a leader in exhibition right internationally. I think other countries are looking to us to see how we move forward with that and how it might develop over time.

[Pierre Nantel, NDP, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Julie Dabrusin]

We will continue with Ms. Dhillon for seven minutes.