Evidence of meeting #139 for Canadian Heritage in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was system.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Scott Garvie  Executive Producer, Shaftesbury Films Inc.
Lori Marchand  Managing Director, Indigenous Theatre, National Arts Centre, Indigenous Performing Arts Alliance
David Yurdiga  Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, CPC
Steven Blaney  Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, CPC
Julien Castanié  President, Illustration Québec
Robin Metcalfe  Director and Curator of Saint Mary's University Art Gallery, and President, Canadian Art Museum Directors Organization
Wayne Long  Saint John—Rothesay, Lib.
Moira McCaffrey  Executive Director, Canadian Art Museum Directors Organization
Randy Boissonnault  Edmonton Centre, Lib.

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

Pierre Breton Liberal Shefford, QC

Ms. Marchand, you have answered a number of questions so far. Can you tell us more about the challenges specific to indigenous artists and creators? Various topics have been discussed, but is there anything else you would like to add? What are the challenges facing your organization?

4:10 p.m.

Managing Director, Indigenous Theatre, National Arts Centre, Indigenous Performing Arts Alliance

Lori Marchand

There are many challenges.

There are so many that I'm not sure where to start. Again, thinking within the context of the committee's work, there are cultural constraints. There are the historical implications of colonization on individuals' lives and realities and I will say that is the primary barrier to success.

As I said in my statement, the historical infrastructure just does not reside in the hands of indigenous companies or artists or producers. Companies in theatre, like the Shaw and Stratford festivals, were producing English and American work and American authors well into the seventies, so the new voices—Canadian and indigenous voices—are really just starting to find their footing now.

The Truth and Reconciliation Commission has impacted our industry as well. I would love to think that maybe the artists were a little bit ahead of that. I come from British Columbia, where on the arts council applications, the companies have to respond to the question, “If you are interacting with the indigenous community, what are the protocols you, as the producer, have in place to engage in this work?”

I would say that there have been efforts at the council level, both federally and in some provinces, to ameliorate that situation and to start to fund the new voices. In the recent round, I can highlight companies, such as Urban Ink, which is the company that co-produced Children of God. Some of you may have seen that, either here at the National Arts Centre or in your community. It's a musical based on the experience of residential schools.

Urban Ink was recognized for the experience that they brought to that production, but as I said, really the largest barriers are cultural.

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Julie Dabrusin

You'll have to end there because we are now going to Mr. Shields, please, for five minutes.

4:15 p.m.

Steven Blaney Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, CPC

I would like to go.

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Julie Dabrusin

We have Mr. Blaney instead, for five minutes.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Martin Shields Conservative Bow River, AB

Go ahead, Mr. Blaney.

4:15 p.m.

Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, CPC

Steven Blaney

Thank you for your flexibility, Madam Chair.

I'm going to speak in French, with braces to boot. Fortunately, we have good interpreters.

Good afternoon and welcome.

Ms. Marchand, let me start with a few words of congratulations on your appointment to the National Arts Centre, where you promote indigenous culture.

Mr. Garvie, you are the producer of a very successful series. I saw on the site that there were two episodes. You are about to start your 13th season. I really enjoyed seeing your passion when answering Mr. Nantel's questions. You are proud to be a Canadian, to produce Canadian content and to tell Canadian stories.

In my case, of course, I am proud to be a Quebecker. We know that our TV series and artists play a very important role in our identity. This also includes the remuneration of our Canadian and Quebec artists. Unfortunately, the Liberals seem to be turning a deaf ear. They're trying to buy time while the fox is in the henhouse.

Mr. Garvie, you mentioned disruptions. We are seeing some major transformations, and all the Liberals have to say is that they will study this issue after the next election. We feel no concrete willingness to protect our creators of Canadian cultural content. I would like to know what you think about that.

We want to amend the Copyright Act. I think you and the various speakers have clearly explained your point of view. As the saying goes:

“If it ain't broke, don't fix it.”

We still have a useful model, even if it needs to be improved. You have clearly demonstrated that producers play an important role and that we must be careful not to disrupt this ecosystem. It seems that the pie is getting smaller. You said that American companies were sort of complicating things.

As the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage, we must make recommendations to protect the remuneration of artists. This means protecting Quebec's and Canada's cultural industry.

I would like to give you an opportunity to comment on this, if you have any comments or thoughts on it.

4:20 p.m.

Executive Producer, Shaftesbury Films Inc.

Scott Garvie

We always look at the production sector in Canada, both domestic production and service production, and we try to do no harm to each other. They're very different business models, but they are very good businesses and create a lot of jobs for artists, directors, actors and crews. While I may not personally believe that the service industry is the one that my company wants to be in for fulfillment, I do believe it has a big, important role in our country and the support that we have been given by provinces and the federal government with respect to tax credits and things has been a very good business tool to create business and create employment.

Where I do take exception is where a foreign studio comes and takes money from the system and doesn't put that money back into the system.

We have a conference right now called Prime Time, and we had quite an animated panel this morning with a member from Netflix and the head of the CBC having a conversation that went down a bit of a rabbit hole into cultural imperialism. I thought that might have been a bit stark for her to have said, but the reality is if we're going to have Canadian companies and Quebec companies that are telling truly Canadian stories and Canadian reflections, then we need to have strong companies that are supported, and we need to have companies, as you say, that have infrastructure and have the wherewithal to take chances and develop and train new people to join the system.

The service companies, the foreign companies that come in, are using the best of the best. They don't necessarily have any interest in developing talent or youth or expanding Canadian companies.

I really believe that support of independent production companies is important for us to continue to do what we do and to help the next generation of Canadians to continue to do what we do.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Julie Dabrusin

We're giving him 12 seconds.

4:20 p.m.

Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, CPC

Steven Blaney

Okay.

Thank you very much. What I take from your comments is a warning about those who are skimming the cream off the top of the market. We are clearly concerned by this reality and we must react to this market transformation. We have a responsibility to protect Canadian cultural interests. I have understood your point of view and I share it.

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Julie Dabrusin

Just to clarify, I believe you have just said that you support having Netflix contribute to the Canadian system.

4:20 p.m.

Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, CPC

Steven Blaney

If I said so, it's probably due to my braces, because this is exactly the opposite of what I said.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Julie Dabrusin

I was just clarifying that point.

Ms. Dhillon, you have five minutes.

January 31st, 2019 / 4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Anju Dhillon Liberal Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC

Thank you to our witnesses for being here today. I enjoyed listening to your testimonies.

I'd like to say to Mr. Garvie that I'm a huge fan of Murdoch Mysteries. It's an exceptional show. It's very creative and there's a lot of talent there. I'm glad this was one of the shows you chose. You've been doing this since 1994. I would like to ask you, what is the role played by media producers regarding copyright and fair remuneration to artists?

4:20 p.m.

Executive Producer, Shaftesbury Films Inc.

Scott Garvie

I think we have talked about it a little bit today, so I don't want to repeat myself, but I think the role of a Canadian producer in this system is to develop IP—great stories—that can then find platforms that attract eyeballs and audiences in Canada, to take that content outside of Canada and export it to the greatest extent possible, to both tell stories and generate revenue in the system, and to have it recirculate in the system. Copyright ownership, to me, is a very important part of that important recycling of revenue into R and D and IP creation that's held by Canadian companies.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

Anju Dhillon Liberal Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC

What are your views on a recommendation that was made to the committee by two other witnesses who said that the Copyright Act should be amended to deem the screenwriter and the director the first copyright owners and co-authors for cinematographic work, specifically excluding producers?

4:25 p.m.

Executive Producer, Shaftesbury Films Inc.

Scott Garvie

Again, I don't think much of that idea. I think it's disingenuous. I think it is opportunistic, and it doesn't reflect the orderly marketplace and the reality of how film and television get produced and financed in Canada.

I think that my colleagues at the Writers Guild and the Directors Guild are trying to take a role in the ownership of content that they're only one part of—an important part, but not the most important part. They certainly don't take any of the financial risk. They want the rewards without taking any risk, which I think is unfair, and I would oppose it strongly.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

Anju Dhillon Liberal Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC

Thank you.

My next question is for Ms. Marchand. Regarding funding, you spoke about new indigenous voices coming up, before in your testimony, and you spoke about help that was given by the federal and certain provincial governments. How has this aid brought this talent further into the creative area?

4:25 p.m.

Managing Director, Indigenous Theatre, National Arts Centre, Indigenous Performing Arts Alliance

Lori Marchand

The infrastructure, as I mentioned, still does not currently reside in the hands of indigenous leaders. Much of the work that has been produced to date has relied on relationships with, we'll say, colonial infrastructure.

There have been—and I would love to reference my work at Western Canada Theatre—some examples of how this work has been undertaken in a respectful and collaborative manner, but going forward we would just love to see that infrastructure and those resources in the hands of the indigenous leaders so that the process is indigenous-led from the beginning.

With the current changes, some of that is starting to happen. Kevin and I are hoping to—I don't want to put anybody on the spot—work with Canada Council and perhaps undertake an investigation of the current infrastructure that is indigenous-led. Where are we missing resources and where could they be augmented? What might be a plan forward for the future? That really is about recognizing the indigenous voice and the necessity to have the indigenous-led process, including from the very initial concept.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Julie Dabrusin

That ends your five minutes and brings us to the end of the panel.

If I can, I'll ask one quick question that you may need to answer in writing, Mr Garvie. In your opening you talked about how Canada's tax credit system is premised on the producer's ownership of copyright. I thought it might be helpful if you clarified that part for us, about how the tax credit system would be predicated on the ownership of copyright by the producer.

4:25 p.m.

Executive Producer, Shaftesbury Films Inc.

Scott Garvie

I will undertake to provide a response to you.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Julie Dabrusin

That would be really helpful, thank you.

With that, we are going to suspend briefly while we move to our next panel. Thank you very much. Your testimony was great.

4:34 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Julie Dabrusin

We'll resume the meeting.

Joining us by videoconference is Julien Castanié, the president of Illustration Québec. From the Canadian Art Museum Directors Organization, we have Robin Metcalfe, who is the President, and Moira McCaffrey, who is the Executive Director.

We'll start with the witness joining us by videoconference.

Mr. Castanié, you have the floor.

4:35 p.m.

Julien Castanié President, Illustration Québec

Good afternoon, everyone. I am Julien Castanié. I am an illustrator and, as you said, I am the President of Illustration Québec. First of all, I would like to thank this committee for the opportunity it gives our association to express its views on such an important topic as copyright.

Illustration Québec is an association of artists founded in 1983—which happens to be the year when I was born. It represents about 300 members. Its mission is to bring together illustrators, represent them and defend their interests, but also to champion and promote the practice of illustration.

I would like to highlight the unique aspect of illustration, which is a social and accessible art. Illustration is used in all areas of our lives to communicate graphic messages and support ideas. It is an omnipresent art created by an artist who lends his or her work to a given context. Illustrations can be found on cereal boxes, in children's books, or even on the poster of a theatre that has decided to use illustration to communicate.

I would now like to talk about the economic reality of our business.

Illustrators are self-employed and their status is precarious. They do not benefit from the labour standards reserved for wage earners. Nor do they benefit from unemployment in the event of a reduction or cessation of activity during a given period.

Unfortunately, as with many artistic disciplines, our profession remains very challenging. According to our latest survey report from 2018, conducted among Quebec illustration professionals, the situation is truly alarming: 45% of illustrators, almost half, earn a net income of less than $15,000 annually from their artistic creation. They must therefore turn to other jobs to earn a livable income.

That is why I stress how vital copyright is for us as artists. Every exception, every new distribution platform that does not generate remuneration for authors amputates creators' income.

I would now like to talk briefly about remuneration models for illustrators in the context of copyright. There are five of them.

The first is the sale of licences for the use of creations as part of the orders of clients. This may mean an editorial illustration in a magazine, the creation of a poster illustration or illustrations for a website.

The second model is the royalties on the selling price of an object that reproduces illustrations. We could talk about children's albums, meaning the distribution of illustrations through the object in itself, but we are also talking about operating authorizations, meaning the use of images distributed on a whole bunch of objects, for example coffee cups or pens. In the case of children's books, royalties paid by publishers represent a percentage of between 3% and 5% of the price of each book sold. To give you a better idea, if the book were an apple, the copyright for the illustrator would be like the seeds of the apple.

The third remuneration model is the Canada Council's Public Lending Right Program, which is actually remuneration for the availability of literary works that can be borrowed from libraries.

The fourth model is the royalties that come from copyright collectives, such as Copibec in Quebec.

The last model is exhibition rights, meaning the rights that are paid for the exhibition of original works.

I would like to take this opportunity to talk about a right that does not exist in Canada, but that exists in dozens of other countries. It's the resale right, which is designed to grant visual artists a portion of the income from the resale of a work after its initial sale. It is something that does not exist in Canada, but that we recommend.

So copyright is truly vital for illustrators. Here are our five recommendations for improving the working conditions of artists through this legislation.

The first is to extend the private copying levy to the new digital media and distribute them to artists. The legislation should adapt to new media. Artistic works are regularly shared on digital media, such as cellphones or tablets, and this use is not covered by the legislation. This is really a loss of income for artists, whose situation is already precarious.

The second proposal is to provide remuneration for the use of works on the web. To my knowledge, right now, there is no control over the distribution or reproduction of works on the Internet. Perhaps a system should be found to manage the use of works and the remuneration of artists. So who would be responsible for that task? I'm actually wondering: would it be the responsibility of the collectives, the access providers, the distributors? It's an open question. Without content, the medium actually no longer makes sense. In fact, those who make works available should be required to pay the royalties or, at the very least, to direct the royalties to the rightful owners of the works.

The third recommendation is to create a tax credit. Given the impoverishment of our crafts, we recommend that a copyright tax credit be included in federal legislation. It already exists in Quebec, for example. So having this support would be a fairly powerful lever to support creation.

The fourth recommendation is to look at what is being done abroad to support artists. Let me draw your attention to a creative support measure that exists in France. French copyright collectives, such as the Société des auteurs des arts visuels et de l'image fixe (SAIF) or the Société française des intérêts des auteurs de l'écrit (SOFIA), which are the equivalent of Copibec in Quebec or the Public Lending Right Program in Canada, support artists through grants for the creation and dissemination of works, but also through grants for artist training or the development of artistic and cultural education. Their activities are funded by one quarter of the amount received for private copying, in accordance with the French Intellectual Property Code. We could imagine such a mechanism to support Canadian creations.

The last proposal—

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Julie Dabrusin

Mr. Castanié, you are already almost one minute over your time. So please conclude your presentation. You may have time to address the other aspects when you answer questions.