Evidence of meeting #143 for Canadian Heritage in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was languages.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Chief Perry Bellegarde  National Chief, Assembly of First Nations
David Yurdiga  Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, CPC
Steven Blaney  Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, CPC
Dwight Newman  Professor of Law and Canada Research Chair in Indigenous Rights in Constitutional and International Law, University of Saskatchewan, As an Individual
Richard Marceau  Vice-President, External Affairs and General Counsel, Centre for Israel and Jewish Affairs
Allyson Grant  Director, Government Relations and Ottawa Public Affairs, Centre for Israel and Jewish Affairs

7:10 p.m.

Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, CPC

Steven Blaney

That is not exactly what the minister told us. He told us that discussions had already been held.

Chief Bellegarde, I understand that the federal government was initially providing $5 million a year through that envelope. I agree that this is not a lot. In the latest budget, the envelope went from $5 million to $30 million over three years. So for the current year and the two subsequent years, there is already an increase in funding, which is now $30 million a year. The minister confirmed to us that, following discussions with you, he would present to us a new budget envelope.

Yesterday, we also had people from British Columbia testify, and they confirmed that the $50 million had indeed been provided for language and culture development in British Columbia.

Here is my question. Earlier, you talked with Ms. Jolibois about the concept of portability. Can you explain that to me further? I am interested in it. That has to do with providing indigenous people with services outside communities. Do you see a way to combine that concept with the current bill?

Can we apply the concept of portability to this bill? That would be my question for you.

7:10 p.m.

National Chief, Assembly of First Nations

National Chief Perry Bellegarde

I made earlier comments about the portability of services and programs. We want to ensure that the services and programs can be obtained regardless of residency.

I said three things. We can use technology. We can also exert the pressure on provincial, territorial and municipal governments, based on the comment that all governments have an obligation. Then, because of the Corbiere decision, we have the right to vote for our chiefs and councils regardless of residency, so there's an expectation at some point there will be portability of services and programs to follow. That's three elements.

As well, within the legislation, clause 6 states:

The Government of Canada recognizes that the rights of Indigenous peoples recognized and affirmed by section 35 of the Constitution Act...include rights related to Indigenous languages.

They're constitutional rights. I believe there's also a provision in clause 9—Roger?—about partnerships with provincial governments.

7:10 p.m.

Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, CPC

Steven Blaney

Thank you very much, Chief Bellegarde.

I'm done?

7:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Julie Dabrusin

That was your final—yes.

We will now go to Mr. Hogg for our final five minutes.

7:10 p.m.

Liberal

Gordie Hogg Liberal South Surrey—White Rock, BC

Thank you very much for your submissions and comments. If I can summarize what I think I'm hearing and see whether or not you can mark me on this.... You're talking, first, about—I think you said four or five times—a sense of urgency with respect to this and the need to get this through by the end of June.

You've talked about the reason for that urgency: it's that no languages are safe and you don't want to move on to uncertainties. I think I heard that quite clearly.

You also said that no legislation is perfect and nothing is, but you felt there was a certain amount of agreement with the legislation here.

In previous testimony that we've heard, we've looked at some of those issues that should be looked at and/or changed.

Clauses 1 through 11, as I read them, are more value statements. They're the principles. They talk a little about organizational structure, but they lay out the broad framework of what we want to achieve. They're referring to the United Nations' UNDRIP, the Constitution and a number of issues that go through that.

Clauses 12 through 30 talk about the office of the commissioner of indigenous languages and the directors that will come with that. I think that's where I would see a lot of the flexibility or a lot of the interpretation. You've made reference a number of times to being able to respond to the local nuances and needs of the geographic area and the people who live in those areas.

Then, I think clauses 31 through 42 talk about a shared responsibility of the implementation of that and the need for flexibility.

I'm fairly accurate to this point. I'm asking if you would then agree that the values that are reflected are appropriate values, that they do provide the foundation and that the office of the commissioner will have the ability to make those decisions. While we don't know who the commissioner or the directors will be, we believe they will be representative of indigenous communities and be from indigenous communities and be able to do that.

My concern with legislation in the past has been that we put too much into the legislation, and we're not able to respond to the nuances and needs as things change. I'm just testing whether or not you would agree, or would correct me in those areas where I'm seeing this incorrectly, or whether or not that is a fair interpretation of what I've heard in your testimony.

7:15 p.m.

National Chief, Assembly of First Nations

National Chief Perry Bellegarde

It's a good question, Mr. Hogg, and I think the principles and values are there quite clearly. You broke it down really well: one to 11: principles and values, the details, commissioners and directors. We had a debate, or I still have a debate. Should we have a commissioner for the Cree? That's one of the 58. How about a commissioner for the Teslin Tlingit? That's another one. What about one for the Dene? That's another one. There are so many.

But again, what's their role? We don't want to take away from the focus. The focus is fluency, and that's what we have to keep our minds and hearts on.

The flexible approach from region to region—no question. The function of this commissioner and these directors was one of reporting and monitoring, reporting and function. Initially, in my mind, the word they use...were we going to have this commissioner as an officer of Parliament, like the Auditor General or the Privacy Commissioner or commissioner of the other languages? They are officers of Parliament. This one, as you can see in the act, is not like that yet. Maybe, but it's starting with something for monitoring and reporting back. It reports to the minister, then the minister has to make this report available to the 338 MPs. It's different.

The whole role.... I break it down to roles, responsibilities, authorities, powers and functions. The commissioner's role was just one of monitoring and reporting back. Remember, this legislation will have five-year reviews. Again, if things aren't perfect, you're going to get this done by the end of June and start it and build on it. If something's not working, we have a process to review and make it better. But the whole objective is statutory funding to make sure, as well, that these programs and policies and procedures that are going to be put in place bring back fluency. That's the objective.

Yes, I agree with the way you've set it up. But the principles and the values are key.

7:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Julie Dabrusin

You have 15 seconds.

7:15 p.m.

Liberal

Gordie Hogg Liberal South Surrey—White Rock, BC

If you were to make one change to the legislation, is there anything you would change at this point? Or, given the urgency, would you leave it the way it is?

7:15 p.m.

National Chief, Assembly of First Nations

National Chief Perry Bellegarde

I made some recommendations in my earlier comments. You can refer back to those in terms of how to improve it.

7:15 p.m.

Liberal

Gordie Hogg Liberal South Surrey—White Rock, BC

Thank you very much.

7:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Julie Dabrusin

I love how concise that was. Thank you very much.

Thank you very much to both of you.

I would like to echo Mr. Oliphant's comments. Thank you for your advocacy on this. Thank you also for being patient with us when we went to vote.

I am very happy that the bill is now coming to us.

7:15 p.m.

National Chief, Assembly of First Nations

National Chief Perry Bellegarde

Thank you for the vote.

Thank you, everybody. Even Hunter.

7:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Julie Dabrusin

Okay. We'll suspend briefly while we change our panels.

7:22 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Julie Dabrusin

We're going to start again.

Again, thank you for everyone's patience.

Professor Dwight Newman, Professor of Law and Canada Research Chair in Indigenous Rights at the University of Saskatchewan, thank you for hanging out with us for the past 20 minutes on the screen.

We have with us, vice-president, Richard Marceau, and Allyson Grant from the Centre for Israel and Jewish Affairs. Erev tov. It's good to have you here.

We will start with the video conference in case we end up with any technical issues.

We will please start with you, Professor Newman, with your presentation.

7:22 p.m.

Professor Dwight Newman Professor of Law and Canada Research Chair in Indigenous Rights in Constitutional and International Law, University of Saskatchewan, As an Individual

Good evening. My name is Dwight Newman. I am a professor of law and Canada research chair in indigenous rights in constitutional and international law at the University of Saskatchewan.

I carry on a broad-based program of research on indigenous rights, constitutional law and international law. I serve in a variety of related policy roles, including as a Munk senior fellow of the Macdonald-Laurier Institute and as a member of the International Law Association's committee on the implementation of the rights of indigenous peoples.

I appear before the committee as an individual, in response to an invitation I received last week, and I am pleased to assist the committee in whatever ways I can as it considers Bill C-91.

In my introductory remarks, I will do two things. One, I want to highlight the importance of supporting indigenous languages and why the goals of this bill should attract support from all sides; and two, I want to highlight a number of specific sections in the bill to think about or ask further questions about, in order to try to enact the best bill feasible.

First, then, I want to highlight that the scholarly literature on language rights generally references many factors that make initiatives on this subject an urgent matter. Language is not just a means of communication, important though that is, but it is also a vehicle of culture and cultural survival, a support for social solidarity and self-worth of different communities, and a means of conserving concepts and values highlighted within different world views that bring a variety of perspectives on our shared quest for meaning in human life.

Supporting indigenous languages is about supporting human communities, kinship networks, families and individuals. In the Canadian context, it is also a vital response to tragic errors of the past insofar as the residential school system tore apart families and communities and caused severe damage to indigenous cultures and languages.

The 2008 Canadian government apology for residential schools was a vital moment in reconciliation, but apologies must carry through to action and, in this case, action that seeks to restore families, communities and cultures. Supporting indigenous languages is an urgent policy initiative.

Second, I want to turn to this specific bill and highlight a number of questions the committee may wish to consider. This legislation has come to Parliament at a particular stage in time, and there are some resulting dangers in the kind of quick consideration it could end up getting, but we must all do the best we can in giving this bill the close attention it deserves in the limited time available.

I am going to highlight a number of questions I think the committee might wish to consider, very specific questions about sections of the bill, but I hope that will be helpful from a legal perspective.

The definitions section in clause 2 of the bill does not define the term “Indigenous languages”, but that term is used elsewhere in the bill, quite obviously. Also, I would raise the question of whether there should be a provision for a schedule of indigenous languages adopted via regulation, so that there can be clarity on which languages the commissioner is to be focused upon, which could be developed, obviously, in conjunction with the commissioner and in consultation on an ongoing basis with indigenous peoples in Canada.

Several other terms that appear elsewhere in the act are also undefined in clause 2. The terms “Indigenous peoples”, “Indigenous governing body” and “Indigenous organization” are all defined in clause 2. However, other terms used in the bill—“Indigenous groups”, “Indigenous community” and “Indigenous governments”—are used elsewhere in the bill but are not defined in clause 2. I would just invite the committee to think of whether any difficulties could arise from that.

Jumping ahead to a related piece of the bill in clause 25, I do want to highlight that the bill says that the commissioner can provide funding to indigenous communities, indigenous governments or indigenous governing bodies—those specific terms. Given the terminology of the bill, there is an implicit but clear exclusion of indigenous organizations, another term appearing in the bill. Indigenous organizations would include bodies that operate in urban areas. The question here, simply, is whether Parliament is clear that it intends to exclude urban indigenous organizations from the possibility of receiving funding directly from the office. That's just a question to be clear upon.

Returning to earlier in the bill, clause 6 includes a legislative recognition of what is included in section 35 of the Constitution Act, 1982. I am personally on record as agreeing with the substantive view expressed in clause 6 as to what's in section 35, and I personally would also defend the role of legislatures in constitutional interpretation, but my view on the latter point is certainly not shared by all.

I would urge the committee to think carefully on Parliament's view of whether a sort of clause like clause 6 is appropriate as part of a legislative enactment as a clause rather than as part of a preamble, for example. I cannot find a precedent like clause 6 in other legislation. Someone may be able to point to one, but using search terms to try to identify one, I've not found one.

You may wish to consider whether there is a separation of powers issue on the legislature pronouncing on the interpretation of a section of the Constitution in place of the courts doing so. You may also wish to consider if there is a federalism issue in the federal Parliament pronouncing on a constitutional matter that also ultimately affects the provinces and trying to do that through federal legislation.

In clause 7, I would highlight that the English and French versions of the bill do not seem entirely consistent, at least as compared with other indigenous rights-related documents from the Government of Canada and the terms used in those documents to express the same meanings in English and in French. The French term, “en vue de”, as found in the French version of this bill, is elsewhere found alongside an English term, “with the aim of”. The English version here, “in order that”, is usually found alongside a French term, “afin de”. The terms at issue can have different legal meanings, and the English version of clause 7 of this bill uses language that some, in other contexts, end up arguing implies the achievement of the substantive result that follows the term. I know I'm being technical here, but this legislation is going to be a statute.

I do not entirely agree with the view that it has that implication, but it can be argued, and if the bill is passed as is, there may end up being credible litigation that argues that the English version of clause 7 implies a funding obligation, although the French version is much less supportive of that result. I know people have a variety of views on what the clause 7 obligation should be, but it's appropriate that there be consistency achieved between the English and French versions and that Parliament understand clearly what it is or is not committing to with the terminology ultimately adopted in clause 7.

7:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Julie Dabrusin

Professor Newman, I just want to jump in to give you a heads-up that you are now at your time. You can have another minute, maybe, to wrap it up and bring up the rest in questions.

7:30 p.m.

Prof. Dwight Newman

I'm sorry to run over time.

I'll just raise the question of whether the construction of clause 24 on research that may be undertaken by the office is too tightly framed. The use of specific examples in the subclauses will tend to limit the interpretation of the general language in the chapeau provision in the clause. I raise the question of whether the research that may be undertaken by the office is constrained, perhaps even so much so that it can't gather the pertinent information to present its mandatory annual report as required by subclause 43(1).

Again, I would urge the committee to consider those matters on drafting. They're challenging matters in terms of the specifics. The bill obviously reflects an important process and important goals that are part of reconciliation. At the same time, while I hope the bill will draw broad support from everyone, hopefully all will work to make the best of the bill that's feasible in the context of the time to consider it.

I will, of course, try to help in respect of any further questions you may wish to pose.

7:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Julie Dabrusin

Thank you.

We will now go to CIJA, the Centre for Israel and Jewish Affairs.

February 20th, 2019 / 7:30 p.m.

Richard Marceau Vice-President, External Affairs and General Counsel, Centre for Israel and Jewish Affairs

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Good evening.

My colleague Allyson Grant and I are happy to have been invited to testify today on Bill C-91 for the Centre for Israel and Jewish Affairs, which is the advocacy agent of the Jewish Federations of Canada. We are a national, non-partisan, non-profit organization representing the perspectives of 150,000 Canadian Jews affiliated through local federations.

7:30 p.m.

Allyson Grant Director, Government Relations and Ottawa Public Affairs, Centre for Israel and Jewish Affairs

Some of you are probably wondering why Canada's Jewish community is involved in the issue of the revitalization of indigenous languages. Why it is one of CIJA's priorities?

CIJA works to ameliorate the quality of life of not only Canadian Jews but of every Canadian. As a human rights organization, we believe in Canada's foundational values of freedom, justice, democracy and equality for all. We are committed to working with governments and all like-minded groups to ensure that Canada is a country where all citizens, irrespective of gender, race or creed, enjoy equal protections and opportunities.

The issue of revitalization of indigenous languages is an issue not only for indigenous people but for all Canadians, and for the entire world. This is why CIJA was honoured and humbled to be a guest of the Assembly of First Nations at the United Nations in New York for the launch of the International Year of Indigenous Languages earlier this month.

The friendship that exists between the indigenous and Jewish communities in Canada is not new, but spans many events and extends over the course of many years. For example, in 2015, CIJA offered a statement of solidarity with indigenous people on behalf of six Jewish organizations following the release of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission's Calls to Action.

7:30 p.m.

Vice-President, External Affairs and General Counsel, Centre for Israel and Jewish Affairs

Richard Marceau

Recently, the issue of indigenous language revitalization in the TRC report resonated with us. As Jews, we know the importance of language. A language is not only a means of communication. It carries with it history, culture and identity: past, present and future.

Dr. Pamela Serota Cote, whose doctoral research at the University of San Francisco focused on Breton language and identity, once noted:

Because language discloses cultural and historical meaning, the loss of language is a loss of that link to the past. Without a link to the past, people in a culture lose a sense of place, purpose and path; one must know where one came from to know where one is going.

Like indigenous people, the Jewish people know first-hand the truth of that statement. A little over a century ago, Hebrew, the indigenous language of the Jewish people, was considered by the world to be dormant, if not dead, confined to the religious texts and spoken prayers of the synagogue.

In 1890, the Jewish community, living in what is now Israel, took the bold step of establishing a Hebrew language committee. Its mandate was to prepare the Hebrew language for use as a spoken language in all facets of life—in the home, school, public life, business, industry, fine arts, and in the sciences.

The committee concluded that the indigenous language of the Jewish people, Hebrew, should be restored in the indigenous land of the Jewish people. It launched an intensive program to transform Hebrew from a language of religious text and ritual into one of daily life. By the time Israel was established in 1948, the broad renaissance the committee envisioned had come to fruition. Whereas biblical Hebrew consists of roughly 7,000 words, modern Hebrew now encompasses about 33,000 words.

As Hebrew writer Yehuda Burla observed: “The very foundation of each and every nation is its national tongue.” For Israelis, the revitalization of Hebrew was pivotal to the rebirth of the Jewish nation. For the diaspora—including the Canadian Jewish community—the restoration of Hebrew to the centre of the Jewish experience has dramatically enriched the identity of Jews worldwide. Today, it is not only in our religious services where one hears Hebrew—even in Canada. Jews around the world are connecting to their roots by studying Hebrew as a key to accessing the vibrant world of modern Jewish culture.

The entire planet now has access to it. Some of the best shows on Netflix are in Hebrew. If you want suggestions, come and talk to me after. I'll give you some.

The revitalization of Hebrew has permanently changed the global Jewish experience. While the situation of indigenous languages in Canada is somewhat different from that of Hebrew, we believe similar consequences can follow from the adoption of Bill C-91.

7:35 p.m.

Director, Government Relations and Ottawa Public Affairs, Centre for Israel and Jewish Affairs

Allyson Grant

This cause is all the more urgent given evidence of the disappearance of indigenous languages in Canada and around the world. UNESCO notes that nearly half of the world's 6,000 languages are endangered. The organization's list of vulnerable languages includes 87 indigenous languages in Canada, 32 are designated as critically endangered.

According to Statistics Canada, the proportion of the indigenous population able to converse in an indigenous language dropped from 21% to 15% in just 10 short years, between 2006 and 2016. This must be reversed and Bill C-91 is an important step in that direction. This historic bill was co-developed by the Assembly of First Nations, with whom CIJA is honoured to work with in support of this vital initiative. Immense credit is owed to the AFN for its years of hard work and persistence in advancing this cause, culminating in Bill C-91.

7:35 p.m.

Vice-President, External Affairs and General Counsel, Centre for Israel and Jewish Affairs

Richard Marceau

To build on the collaborative co-development process of the legislation, the bill recognizes that “Indigenous peoples are best placed to take the leading role in reclaiming, revitalizing, maintaining and strengthening Indigenous languages”. Indeed, they are the only ones who can do so.

It is a sentiment that is echoed in other places in the bill, such as: subsection 5(b), section 7, subsection 23(b) and section 25. The bill compels the Government of Canada to support approaches developed and driven by indigenous peoples. This must remain central to the implementation of the bill.

Indeed, while this process will rightly be developed and led by indigenous communities, the federal government has a vital supporting role to play, which is why passing Bill C-91 without delay is critical. Once the legislation is passed, sufficient, sustainable and long-term funding must be ensured, as committed to in the 14th whereas. We have to put the same amount of effort into protecting and revitalizing indigenous languages as Canada put into trying to eradicate them.

Our hope, Madam Chair, is that the adoption of Bill C-91 will pave the way for a comprehensive set of language immersion and cultural programs across the country, developed and led by indigenous communities. Canada's Jewish community stands ready to support this historic initiative in any way possible. We urge you as parliamentarians, from all parties, to support the rapid passage of Bill C-91.

Merci.

7:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Julie Dabrusin

Thank you.

I have two questions for the committee before we go to questions. My plan was to end it at 8 o'clock. I was going to ask if we could reduce it to a five-minute round. The other thing that will bring us to just past 8, if everyone is okay with it, is that I've had a request from Mr. Tootoo. He would like five minutes for questions as well.

Can I have the consent of the committee to add in that five minutes, bringing us to just after 8 o'clock?

7:35 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.