Canadian Heritage Committee on Nov. 15th, 2016

[Michael Gruzuk]

—while also balancing the needs of covering what's happening in the world on a day-to-day level.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

Perhaps I can reach out to you as well, Mr. Lilley, in my last minute here.

[Brian Lilley]

I would just quickly say that it's up to us, as media companies, to invest in what matters to our respective audiences. I don't know about my colleagues, but I'd be very suspect of someone showing up and saying, “Hi, I'm from the government. I'm here to help. Can we help pay for your journalism?”

We were just at a World Health Organization conference where the Canadian delegation sat silently while the entire conference banned media. We cover government, so we're suspect of taking money, regardless of who is going to offer it. I think it's up to us to find what our audience is looking for and provide it to them.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

I have about seven seconds left and I have one more thing.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

You have one second.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

In one second, then, people have raised the idea of foundations to support journalism, as another option. I am not going to be able to get an answer, but if you can bring that out, I would love to hear your thoughts about that too.

[Phillip Crawley]

I can talk about that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you.

We now go to Mr. Van Loan for the Conservatives.

[Peter Van Loan, Conservative, York—Simcoe, ON]

Newspapers clearly came from a perspective 125 to 150 years ago. Political parties literally published lists of which were the acceptable newspapers if you were a supporter of that political party.

Mr. Crawley, your predecessor at the Globe, George Brown, was full time trying to take down Sir John A. for several decades. It wasn't the kind of mainstream or serious media that pretends to be objective you see today, or later. But now, with the disruption that's happening, you have digital outlets like the Rebel, like VICE, which I think are quite clearly speaking to a perspective.

We've heard, of course, in recent days that people are concerned that folks are living in more and more isolated bubbles of like-minded thought, and they aren't going to be exposed to different perspectives. There is a lot of suggestion that even the so-called serious media represent their own separate serious, perhaps, but same isolated bubbles of thought of like-minded people.

In our study, as we wrestle with whether the trends are a bad or a good thing, my question for Mr. Crawley, Mr. Lilley, and Mr. Gruzuk is the same. First, do you think that's necessarily a bad thing? Second, is there anything we can do about it, if you think it's a bad thing? And third, is there anything we should do about it?

[Michael Gruzuk]

I'm happy to answer. One of the interesting things with the lack of trust that has emerged in the last few days is that it was a Canadian digital outlet, BuzzFeed, who I want to give great credit to, who was tracking a lot of the falsehoods that were being spread and shared through social media throughout the campaign.

I think there is tremendous opportunity—inspiration, I would say—among journalism colleagues that I have been in conversation with in the last week that all of us are more necessary than ever to cut through the noise and to ensure that we're doing journalism that is well sourced and well placed. I have to have some sort of optimistic faith that it will work and audiences will find their way to it.

[Phillip Crawley]

I was at a conference kindly hosted by Google, and there was a discussion there between Jeb Bush and Dan Rather on whether we were living in a post-truth society where it really didn't matter what you said, it would be accepted by a large number of people. You could debunk it and it still didn't make a difference.

We've seen a little of that recently. The interaction between President-elect Trump and newspapers like The New York Times and The Washington Post will be an interesting study over the next little while.

[Brian Lilley]

I don't think people are living in bubbles to the degree that it is claimed. Rebel comes from a perspective. I get articles sent to me by our viewers, by our audience members, from the Globe, from VICE, from CBC, from across the spectrum. Sometimes people are saying that this is excellent, and sometimes they're saying that this is garbage, debunk it. People are reading across a wide variety. I don't think most people are sitting and just consuming one particular news outlet.

Even if they were, what on earth would Parliament do about that? You can't go into our homes and tell us what to read. I'd be very concerned about that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Mr. Clement.

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

I'd like to return to the topic of the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, and specifically comments made by Mr. Crawley and Mr. Lilley.

It is very concerning to me that, on a commercial basis, the CBC is looking to create new markets for itself, including the one that you mentioned because it's important that they compete against Spotify, etc.

Rather than hearing my thoughts on the matter, which are pretty clear, I would put this question to you, Mr. Crawley and Mr. Lilley. What should the CBC do and what should the CBC not do?

[Phillip Crawley]

Mr. Lilley did refer to how the CBC's started now running opinion as a regular item of content. Reporting on news is not enough, they want to have columnists, which again runs into territory that traditionally has been what newspapers do. We have something like 16 columnists on The Globe and Mail as full-time columnists, quite apart from freelance. We think people want diversity of opinion, they want to see different opinions, and that's what we feel is part of our forum. CBC now feels it's part of its remit too. I just wonder, like you, where that's heading.

[Brian Lilley]

What should they be doing? Well, they should be sold off. I've written a book on that. I can tell you the history of why they were never actually needed. We could have that debate.

Given that this won't happen, I won't flog that dead horse, I'll just say: stick to their knitting. They have a mandate from Parliament. You have given them a mandate, and they keep coming to Parliament, regardless of who's in power, saying, we don't have enough money to fulfill our mandate. Great, then why are you running the music streaming service? That should be shut down. Why are they going into markets like Hamilton, London, and Kelowna, with very strong local media presence, local ownership in some cases, and setting up digital-only shops, that don't broadcast over the airwaves, that are going to compete? That is puzzling to me. That should be shut down. I think it's incumbent upon Parliament to tell them, you've received more money, now do what you're requested of by Parliament and stop breaking out into different areas.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

You have one more minute.

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

I have a question for you, Mr. Dumas. My experience with my local media has been that when everything was agglomerated, and in my case Metroland and the equivalent radio, corporate entities came in. What sprang out of that was other local people creating local media to compete with them. So there wasn't a net loss like there was in your experience in the Gaspé. Have you seen any of that in the province of Quebec, for instance?

[Jean-François Dumas]

In Quebec, 83% of the entire daily inventory of news comes from three sources: Québecor, Radio-Canada or Gesca. That is a good example of the uniformity, the “McDonaldization”, of information from one end of Quebec to the other.

In recent years, we have seen the closure of weeklies and radio stations in Quebec. There are fewer and fewer resources in the regions and less and less region-specific news. It cannot be said that Quebec is open for local information or that it is growing. It is clearly losing momentum.

However, according to the research and to the chief electoral officer, the regions where most local information is produced are where participation rates in municipal elections are highest. It is there that the public feels most inclined to become involved in the democratic process. At the other end of the scale, in regions with the least amount of local information, the voting rate is lowest.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you.

Before we go to Mr. Nantel from the NDP, I just want to remind everyone that Mr. Martineau is also here to answer questions.

Mr. Martineau, if you feel you have something to add and you want to speak up, just raise your hand and I will recognize you.

Mr. Nantel.

[Pierre Nantel, NDP, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

I feel a bit like I was about to take flowers to my wife at the very moment she asked me to bring her some. It's not very spontaneous any more. Mr. Martineau, I was actually going to ask you a question.

But you were right to mention it, Madam Chair.

[Pierre Martineau]

Great, go ahead.

[Pierre Nantel, NDP, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Yes, it is easy to get off track. This study is principally about local media. We are talking about the potential for the regions to lose their vitality because they are losing access to the media that cover their news.

Madam Chair, you were right to point out that Mr. Martineau is with us. He has particularly interesting experiences not only in small markets like Trois-Rivières—the people from Trois-Rivières will not be happy to hear me say that—but also in Quebec City, where he currently works.

I knew Jeff Fillion when he was the program director at CJAB in Chicoutimi. Some areas are extremely rich with media. I do not have exact figures because we don’t keep track of it, but the number of media outlets per resident is spectacular in Jonquière and Chicoutimi. In Quebec City too, the market is flourishing fantastically.

Here endeth the sermon. This is my specific question. Specifically in terms of advertising, is the market shrinking or is it working as well as your service to the customers?

[Pierre Martineau]

As in any industry, the fittest will survive. A little earlier, we were talking about some regions in Quebec where local information media are being lost. Of course, if information media no longer make money, they will disappear, clearly.

[Pierre Nantel, NDP, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

In terms of advertising revenue in the entire Quebec market, is the pie getting smaller?